[quote=grissinger]I find it interesting that 1200 people care enough about this to vote. I didn't think there were 1200 powerlifters.[/quote]
I voted twice ;)
[quote=grissinger]I find it interesting that 1200 people care enough about this to vote. I didn't think there were 1200 powerlifters.[/quote]There's not 1200 lifters voting, it is 2 or 3 people hiding there IP's and constently voting. Want to know who look the ones with the aginda's behind it.
FAct: On no subject has there ever been 1200 votes and this is just about knee wraps, wonder why it is so important to some one, makes you wonder don't it?
If they change the records then I personally think they should change it at the meets to. Going to water down the records even further then meet directors that are actually doing the work should reap the benefits of it too. APF last year in Alabama did Raw, Classic, Single Ply and Multi Ply. Going to add it in in one place, should add it in every where. Then lifters from ALL the federation can come on over too.
[quote=Anonymous][quote=grissinger]I find it interesting that 1200 people care enough about this to vote. I didn't think there were 1200 powerlifters.[/quote]There's not 1200 lifters voting, it is 2 or 3 people hiding there IP's and constently voting. Want to know who look the ones with the aginda's behind it.
FAct: On no subject has there ever been 1200 votes and this is just about knee wraps, wonder why it is so important to some one, makes you wonder don't it?
[/quote]
That's incorrect. There are a number of polls which have had more votes cast.
[quote=Staff][quote=Anonymous][quote=grissinger]I find it interesting that 1200 people care enough about this to vote. I didn't think there were 1200 powerlifters.[/quote]There's not 1200 lifters voting, it is 2 or 3 people hiding there IP's and constently voting. Want to know who look the ones with the aginda's behind it.
FAct: On no subject has there ever been 1200 votes and this is just about knee wraps, wonder why it is so important to some one, makes you wonder don't it?
[/quote]
That's incorrect. There are a number of polls which have had more votes cast.[/quote]
It's funny to me that this guy comes on here and says, "FACT" like he knows, then the Staff shuts him down. I wonder how many other people in this thread are throwing around "facts" that they don't really know about. Several on both sides of this come to mind as likely. How about this: a reasonable discussion where you don't just say stuff simply to say something? Too much to ask? That's what I thought...
[quote= Mike T. ][quote=Staff][quote=Anonymous][quote=grissinger]I find it interesting that 1200 people care enough about this to vote. I didn't think there were 1200 powerlifters.[/quote]There's not 1200 lifters voting, it is 2 or 3 people hiding there IP's and constently voting. Want to know who look the ones with the aginda's behind it.
FAct: On no subject has there ever been 1200 votes and this is just about knee wraps, wonder why it is so important to some one, makes you wonder don't it?
[/quote]
That's incorrect. There are a number of polls which have had more votes cast.[/quote]
It's funny to me that this guy comes on here and says, "FACT" like he knows, then the Staff shuts him down. I wonder how many other people in this thread are throwing around "facts" that they don't really know about. Several on both sides of this come to mind as likely. How about this: a reasonable discussion where you don't just say stuff simply to say something? Too much to ask? That's what I thought...[/quote]
But think of the consequences of such an unorthodox approach: if we start having reasonable and possibly productive discussions here, it might carry over to other aspects of life. Before you know it, we will start actually SOLVING problems instead of complaining about them and shaking our fists at anyone who disagrees with us. That would cause progress all around. Surely that's not the kind of world you want to live in.
[quote=Anonymous]They have a place for you guys to lift that dont like wraps, its called USAPL or AAU. [/quote]
Actually you can lift in any fed you want with as little gear as you want. The limitations are on how MUCH gear you can use, not how little you use. I powerlift for myself. I compete in the USPF mainly because they are amazing meets and are local. Yes it is a single ply fed but I lift in belt and knee wraps. I am currently in the mid 8s in the squat and I would love to beat Mark Henry's amazing 954 with belt and wraps. That is the all time walked out raw squat record.
I love all the 385 lb squatting internet warriors wailing in the streets about wraps. Not many guys lifting actually heavy weight do so without wraps.
I agree there should be standardization with wraps. There does not need to be 3 meter super stiff wraps. I use 2m or 2.5m Inzer wraps like everyone else in single ply feds and they work fine.
And seriously, here we go again with the "tennis balls behind knees" comparisons. Do I really have to explain how stupid that argument is?
All the talk about wearing zero equipment being the only raw type of lifting, please go to hell!
I cannot squat without wraps. My knee loses stability with heavier weights, so I use wraps. However, I could use a very light wrap or Ace bandage wrap to help the problem and bypass some of the extreme knee wraps of today. If so, this should be considered raw, regardless of federation.
"On the same note...is wearing wrist wraps ok on the bench press? I recently competed in 100% raw who does not allow them."
Why doesn't somebody answer this one? I know we're all getting 100 pounds out of knee wraps so why don't we address wrist wraps.. Why are they not RAW?
I find it amusing that guys who don't use these things (wraps) are telling me how much I get out of them.
I can't wait for someone to tell me I get 50 pounds out of wrist wraps....it's coming....
[quote=Anonymous]"On the same note...is wearing wrist wraps ok on the bench press? I recently competed in 100% raw who does not allow them."
Why doesn't somebody answer this one? I know we're all getting 100 pounds out of knee wraps so why don't we address wrist wraps.. Why are they not RAW?
I find it amusing that guys who don't use these things (wraps) are telling me how much I get out of them.
I can't wait for someone to tell me I get 50 pounds out of wrist wraps....it's coming....
[/quote]
I would say that wristwraps mark the dividing line between raw "purists" and those who aren't. They don't give any rebound. I think that, at most, they keep some people's wrists from hurting. Even when I lift where they are allowed, I usually don't use them. But, personally, I think they should be allowed for raw.
When I was in my 20s I could squat twice a week w/o knee wraps. Now at age 60 I can't w/o consequences. I think most would like to see the squat & BP girdles go away, and if the RAW competitions, and PL in general, are to ever become main stream sport, it will have to be with singlets and knee wraps. Aside from the cost factor, most athletes think the tight gear is a joke.
[quote=Anonymous]How bout getting rid of Raw and just having Classic, Single-Ply and Multi-ply??
Raw sounds kinda gay anyway...[/quote]
Heres an idea, if you guys know so much, how about starting your own federations and put your own money on the line and then lets see those bright ideas roll in. It is easy to set back and say they should do this or that when its not your dime.
I am sure Jon will do what ever he pleases here on this site, which he has the right to do what ever, but nothing will change the way the federations do things. We have federations for the ones that like wraps and federations for the ones that don't.
Personally if it goes that way and then all the federations change too, then it will be just more watered down with Raw, Classic, Single Ply, and Multi- Ply and I can assure you if the records change, everything else will change with it.
Do you really think any federation out there will just set by and let one or two federations set records in the Raw only record books, no they will make changes too. There will be no special little record books for say USAPL or the unity meet or AAU, people will make divisions for it and then every body will be crying about division again.
I agree that any fed can do what it wants, define "raw" however it wants, whatever.
The bottom line is that if anyone wants to determine the strongest pound-for-pound lifters they'll know that when the only gear a guy has on is a belt and maybe wrist wraps there's a level playing field. Neither a belt nor a wrist wrap is going to boost pounds lifted.
The dispute over whether and how much knee wraps assist a lifter tells you one thing: If there's a performance increase from wearing knee wraps it's not "raw". Just because a handful of people claim they get no rebound or other boost from wraps doesn't change the fact that virtually every other lifter wearing them is doing so more for the performance enhancement than anything else.
[quote=Eddie]I agree that any fed can do what it wants, define "raw" however it wants, whatever.
The bottom line is that if anyone wants to determine the strongest pound-for-pound lifters they'll know that when the only gear a guy has on is a belt and maybe wrist wraps there's a level playing field. Neither a belt nor a wrist wrap is going to boost pounds lifted.
The dispute over whether and how much knee wraps assist a lifter tells you one thing: If there's a performance increase from wearing knee wraps it's not "raw". Just because a handful of people claim they get no rebound or other boost from wraps doesn't change the fact that virtually every other lifter wearing them is doing so more for the performance enhancement than anything else.[/quote]eddie put it straight. bottom line
When I first heard the term "raw" years ago I had unsettling visions of a nudist resort.
But I agree with the idea. It is a simple fact: if it provides mechanical advantage, you are not doing the work. If you need it to lift it...it's not all you! If your gear is storing energy (from gravity) on the down, and providing lift on the up, it is not purely your strength that is being measured.
Applying mechanical advantage, using tools to do a job better, is one of the things that humans have excelled at over the centuries. It's what they do. But, it is not an accurate measure of basic strength. Knee wraps provide rebound. Belts increase intra-abdominal pressure which directly assists the erectors (which is what well trained abdominal girdle muscles are supposed to do). Bench shirts, DL suits, etc...don't even get me started. They are little more than wearable rubber bands for the storage of energy. Wear them if you like, but don't kid yourself that you are the one doing all the work.
As for wrist wraps on the bench: It seems to me that they do not effect the muscles that are actually doing the lifting in that motion. In that case it could probably be argued that they help protect a series of small joints which are bearing a great deal of weight... without actually assisting the lift. You do not lift that weight with your wrists - proper form is with a fairly straight wrist anyway. Bearing is not lifting. That being said, I don't use them myself. A bit of an ideal there. I'd rather learn to do things right, structurally speaking, than rely on something artificial.
So I will continue to lift "raw", i.e. without mechanical assistance. I will be outlifted by people who would rather wear their help, and the competitions I enter will be skewed by inaccurate comparisons. But I will continue to get stronger, I will "grow my belt", I will do MY best, and I will continue to progress. In the end, I know who will be stronger walking down the street... in the raw. ;)
This has been a terrific debate question posted. There are lots of great replies and most are justified. I cannot speak of other organizations only 100% RAW Powerlifting Federation, Inc. The main reason we do not allow knee wraps is because of the recoil factor and how you can get as mush as 125lbs out of them. You can take any lifter who has good knees and no issues with pain and let him lift without wraps and lift again with wraps right after and his lift will increase dramatically. This is the main reason we do not allow them.
I would love to allow them as this would open the doors for sponsors but the last time I posed this question we got a lot of negative feedback. Another reason is that records would be broken by some form of assistance which would not be fair.
This is why I give my total endorsement to Greg Stott and his guidelines of 4 classes.
Raw
classic
equipped
Extreme
Lets face it guy's none of this is going away and they all offer something special to each lifter. It gives lifters opportunities to try different aspects of lifting similar to NASCAR. You as a lifter have the choice on which form you prefer and you can lift in those organizations. I do not agree with having 100 different organizations as this waters things down and takes away the credibility to lifting but we as lifters know what good lifts are and who deserves the respect of being a quality lifter.
Paul Bossi
100% RAW Powerlifting Federation, Inc.
Paul, Greg, and Eric...FANTASTIC. I love the levels of RAW. Great thoughts from great men. I think safety is one thing and assistance is something else. Keep up the debates :-)
Question for Eric T.
This Question Is for you Eric. You being a experienced lifter that has been around this sport for some time now. Don't you think that this question is a symptom of two many federations and too many variations in rules between them? I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, but this sport has been around for years and when a question as to what a true raw lift is and not, brings me to the conclusion that this sport is dis-jointed among federations and has major issues. This is a major problem in my opinion and I do believe that this question is a true concern among our sport. Raw means un-assisted in my book, and from exp. knee wraps can add considerable poundage to your squat between 20-50 pounds depending on your exp with them and how you wrap them....and I agree with ERic, that wraps is not raw test of true power b/c it's assisted. I compete raw and just use the wraps to keep up with the comp. This is the sort of stuff that hurts our sport as a whole in my opinion, and once again if this sport can't unify, then in my opinion they should adopt the same equipment rules and standards, so this would not be a concern...
So when one federation allows, knee wraps and the other does not....how do you break a raw record.....???? And what standard is this record held to on a National and World Level....? Big problem b/c of the incosistency among the rules among the feds......Great Post Eric....
[quote=Staff][/quote]
What about sumo and traditional deadlift?
Should there be separate records?
Is sumo style really deadlifting?
No matter if you wear wraps or not the person is still squatting. I feel wraps protect the knee and could possibly extend your years of squatting in the sport.
ernie milian
I have been powerlifting since 1967, due to an injury during 1965 I can't squat without wraps. I even wear wraps when warming up with 135 lbs.
I think raw should include knee wraps and a belt. I also think wrist wraps should be allowed.
As to wrist wraps I don't really care but the good benchpressers should be allowed to wear them
Since the horse may still be alive; Knee wraps were, although you would be hard pressed to prove, created for the purpose of safety, according to many on this thread. I have no idea as to the validity of the claim. However, they are no longer made for this purpose. In as much, they have ceased to be "raw" additions to the lifter ensemble. That being said, each fed defines raw as they see fit, and in as much, raw is as it is defined by the federation whose event you are currently participating in. The conflict here is purpose versus definition. In life, the two rarely coincide.
As a lifter in my late 40's getting back into this sport, I have to have the opinion that knee wraps are safer and contribute to preventing injury. The injury prevention is more important than the carry over of added poundage and the added poundage is really not that much. It's a far cry from the modern day squat suits. I have competed mostly raw but back in my 20's all the meets I competed in raw allowed knee wraps. I have been associated with the APF since returning to this sport and I have been working up from bench only to push-pulls to eventually full meets again trying to go raw with no wraps. I Have jacked my knees several times which are actually my healthiest joint. If small rough micro spots in the cartilage of the knee cap rub against tendons and ligaments because the knee tracks improperly you can wake up the next day and not be able to bend your knees at all. Properly wrapping your knees help prevent this and I strongly feel knee wraps should be considered raw like a belt is considered raw. I actually don't use a belt to deadlift at all because it irritates my hiatal hernia. I am working with around 525 for sets of 5 right now on the DL and if I could use a belt I could squeeze against it better and get a lot more weight, but the belt is still considered raw. I think the knee wraps should be considered just like a belt. I wish at least the APF would have a "Classic Raw division" like the USPA.
Comments
I find it interesting that
grissinger wrote:I find it
grissinger wrote:I find it
Anonymous wrote:grissinger
Staff wrote:Anonymous
Mike T. wrote:Staff
They have a place for you
Anonymous wrote:They have a
I cannot squat without
On the same note...is
"On the same note...is
Anonymous wrote:"On the same
I vote sock only.
When I was in my 20s I could
I think moving weight is fun
i think i'm just posting
I think it would be really
How bout getting rid of Raw
Anonymous wrote:How bout
I agree that any fed can do
Eddie wrote:I agree that any
When I first heard the term
This has been a terrific
Paul, Greg, and
Question for Eric T. This
*********** STREAKING
Staff wrote: What about sumo
ernie milian I have been
Since the horse may still be
As a lifter in my late 40's
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