First Time In A Bench Shirt

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Create: 03/27/2006 - 08:43
Author: admin
You've finally got your first bench shirt. You hit the gym looking to blast up a new pr. Once there, things don't work out exactly as you planned. Ryan Kennelley's forum has a thread which reflects a pretty typical experience for someone using a bench shirt for the first time. It also includes a lot of helpful advice on what to expect from a shirt and how to get used to it. The first timers experience:

So I ordered a Titan F6 44' when my chest is only 40' since it is my first time using a bench shirt and I didn't want it to be too tight. I got it on easily over my chest but there was no way in hell I could pull my arms back like I was doing a bench press manouver (and it was tight as hell around my biceps which are about 15' flexed). I put on 3 plates (315) which is like my raw max and tried to lift it, and it only went to like 3 inches above my chest but it felt like it was really pinching the bottom-back part of my shoulder behind my armpit. Yeah it felt easier than lifting the weight raw, but it felt really awkward and there was no way I could get it down to my chest. When I took off the shirt I had torn the skin off where it had been pinching and on the front part of my chest beside my armpit. Is this a normal experience for the first time you use a shirt? I've read in some forums that some people gain 35 lb when they use a shirt for the first time. Am I putting on the shirt right? Since I got the shirt 4 inches bigger than my chest, shouldn't I be able to touch the weight with my max? Also, is there any point training with a shirt if you can't even touch without going way above what you can lift (i.e. should I stick with the shirt)? Finally, is there anyone here that is from Connecticut (because I'm a really inexperienced lifter and the guy who helped me put it on is my roomate who can barely curl a pencil)? The shirt just wasn't what I was expecting for the first try. It was really easy to get on but constrained my elbows so much that I couldn't even do a regular pushup due to the tightness around my armpits. But I guess I'll stick with it for a few weeks and if it still continues leaving bruises/torn skin I think I'll just stick to RAW benching!

Thoughts on his experience and advice on getting used to his shirt:

keep working with it and you will learn to love it... about the arms, ull get use to it (my arms are a measily 15ish and i get a 40 on in like 2 seconds) and touching takes time, in my 42 rage x which is like 2-3 sizes to big it took me like 5-6 weeks to touch something i could actually press..

you should get more that 35 pounds out of your shirt the first time you have it on i had a kinda tight titan one years ago for my first shirt and got 90 pounds out of it right their which was really good then but now i get a lot more out of my shirt now that i have more experience so just take your time and get to know your shirt it be the best thing ever trust me

try searching some more because there is an infinite amount of info on tips and tricks for getting on a shirt and getting the most out of a shirt. Not sure but it sounds like you just put the shirt on and tried to go bench something. There needs to be a more caculated approach than that. Try taking it down to some boards first and make sure you are warmed up before you put the shirt on. Learn the groove of the shirt and placement before you let your mind wander to other conclusions. For your first time in a shirt ever you experience is pretty common so stick with it get your money out of the thing.

It sounds like the shirt is perfect for a first shirt. The wounds under your arm are "badges of honor". Welcome to shirt benching. Get some side spotters and try to touch the weight a little lower down your chest than usual. It would really help if you had some experienced shirt lifters to help. If not try to hit one of the MM seminars. Well worth the $.

give your shirt more time and warm up with boards. I started out with a rage X single and the first time I used it only got maybe 25-30 pounds. After a few months training in it and learning the groove i get over 100 out of it and have moved up to a 2 ply and get 200 out of this shirt. Take the time to learn the groove and hammer your tri's. And the bruising and bleeding are just beauty marks!

Be sure to do this to make sure your arms are seated all the way in. After you and your partner have pulled it on as for as possible put about your raw max on the bar and bring it down to about 2 boards or around 3 inches from touching. Then repull the shirt. It will seat in a little farther after that pre-stretch. Then add weight as you can handle it each workout until you finally get a clean touch with a weight you can ram back up. Be patient and the shirt should work for you. Another little trick to get it seated is to pull down just under the arm pit as you push your arm and fist straight up a few times.

I don't know about everybody else but all of my shirts leave cuts and bruises.If it aint hurtin,it aint workin.Thereare several lifters here from CT.You need to get with some of them for help.Don't puss out yet.Give it some time and it will come.

make sure you have your elbows exposed, fold the sleeves up if you have to. and also make sure you tuck your elbows in toward your sides as you bring the bar down, for good instructions for putting on you titan try liftinglarge.com click on the link that says "getting the most out fo your bench shirt"

Comments

Submitted by Doc Iron (not verified) on
Jon, You, I, and a few others were debating the fairness and safety implications of equipment in another thread. Ultimately, it came down to whether equipment was good for the sport, and healthy for the lifters. I honestly don't think I can articulate my OBJECTIONS any better than the people in this thread (who, ironically enough, seem to be endorsing it). "I put on 3 plates (315) which is like my raw max and tried to lift it, and it only went to like 3 inches above my chest." So let me get this straight, even with a shirt that's 4 sizes TOO LOOSE you still can't touch a 315 pound weight to your chest? Gee I wonder how much of an advantage these things might give you ... let's find out ... "After a few months training in it and learning the groove i get over 100 out of it and have moved up to a 2 ply and get 200 out of this shirt." 200 pounds ... nice, that's about what the typical "relatively strong" guy can bench. So this piece of equipment tacks essentially an extra person of strength on to your lift ... which everyone seems to feel is OK. However, if someone reports an "assisted" bench number (with a spotter) or one that involves a bounce, or one that stopped an inch short of their chest, they're labelled a "clown". And finally, with respect to the health and safety issues (those of you who read the other thread know that I am a physician, 46 years old, been lifting weights for 30 years, never used equipment, 480DL - 350BE - 525 SQ = 1355 total): "And the bruising and bleeding are just beauty marks!" "I don't know about everybody else but all of my shirts leave cuts and bruises.If it aint hurtin,it aint workin." Well this certainly sounds like a healthy innovation for the sport, every sport should force people to use equipment that does damage to their bodies if they want to set world records. Perhaps we can get track athletes to run faster if we put the spikes INSIDE their shoes ... it will certainly motivate them to get to the finish line more quickly. "But I guess I'll stick with it for a few weeks and if it still continues leaving bruises/torn skin I think I'll just stick to RAW benching!" Seems to me this is the smartest thing this young man has ever said. While it is cerainly everyone's individual choice whether to use equipment, supplements, steroids, etc. It seems to me that doing things that are harmful to one's body just to inflate one's numbers defeats the whole purpose of the physical culture movement. It doesn't take a "real man" to say "Hey, I bench 800 pounds but to do it I wear a slingshot piece of equipment that tears skin off my body and I've pumped myself so full of crap that my liver is going to jump out of my mouth by the time I'm 40!" Instead, it takes a real courage, integrity and self-confidence to say "Hey, I only bench 400 but I've done it healthy, and you know what, it's all me lifting the weight."

Submitted by Hank (not verified) on
Doc, Why don't you just leave the lifters who choose to wear slingshots alone? If you choose to lift without gear and/or without steroids you have every right to expect other lifters to respect that. Please return the favour. I don't see cricket players talking about baseball players lacking courage, integrity and self-confidence because they have to use one of those cheating glove thingys. As for shirts being "harmful to one's body"...c'mon...they are talking about pinches and bruises. If you really want to express concern for the health of powerlifters you could focus on the crappy diet that many of us have that presents an actual risk to our health. I logged into this discussion because my first shirt is on the way and I thought I could learn something. To read your derisive response left a sour taste in my mouth. Public petty bickering is poison to the sport. Please desist. Good Luck with your raw lifting. Hank

Submitted by TheGymMuse on
Hey Doc...,if you don't mind me asking, why the critique? I too am a long time lifter. I don't have the numbers you have, and if I did I would feel a whole lot better and would be competing more often. Whether I was a lifter or not, it would be my analysis that the use of equipment is what everyone utilizes in the sport. And from the perspective of being a competitor, it is by choice that it is used. No one has to don a shirt or lifting suit to compete and I can dispell the notion that there is some perceived advantage for equipped lifters over lifters who chose not to use equipment. I competed with an unequipped lifter this past Saturday. Also, as an experienced lifter, I understand the risks. There are risks involved in every sport competed or challenges like mountain climbing undertaken. Runners get theirs through the types of shoes they wear. I can go on. Isn't it part of the human spirit and achievement to be risk takers. In our sport or any other, we rely on the medical community to put us back together when our bodies fail. I just competed in a bench meet. I wore a bench shirt. I chose to wear a bench shirt, not with the thought that I was going to try an attempt that I couldn't do, but one that would ensure my success in completing each attempt. I also had problems adjusting to the shirt early on in training in that it bruised and cut into my skin. Smart or healthy? No. But I understand the risks and what to expect. I incurred very little buising post meet. The human body is wonderful in that it will adapt and a mystery how it manages to survive. The shirt I wore was much tighter than any shirt I have worn to date. The first time I made an attmpt with the shirt in this last cycle, I could not get the bar to my chest (first time!). But, the shirt was not fitted properly. Many lifters out there today do not understand the importance of having their shirt fitted properly and usually, when they order their first shirt, they provide certain requested measurements to the manufacturer who sends them a shirt built to canned specifications. I had to return the very first shirt I ordered due to the fact it was too tight. I would never encourage a lifter ordering their first shirt to order one that is so tight that they could not get it fitted properly with some relative ease or could not get the bar to their chest. We also have to look at mind set. The people in this sport are determined to win and make great accomplishments. Had it not been for the forward thinking of Columbus, the New World may not have been universally known for a number of more years. There are stories of great accomplishmnets made on the heals of nay sayers throughout history. What our sport needs is guidence. It currently comes in the form of the latest training formula by the most recent champion. It at times can be considered in some respects a fad (boy does that bring back some memories)or even a cult. Where you land and who you follow is by the choice of the individual. So there is no prescribed right or wrong way. That determination is made on the platform. What these lifters are doing on their board is right in that they don't know the answers and are seeking advice. That is why this board is available so that folks like you and I can offer advice from the perspective of experience. I honor your opinion. But would like to see you on the platform as well. Lift..., what else?

Submitted by admin on
Some well articulated thoughts here. While this thread does a good job illustrating what to expect when using a shirt for the first time as well as some advice on how to get accustomed to it, it seems harder to use it to illustrate why shirts are bad for powerlifting or unsafe for lifters. Cuts and bruises come with powerlifting and most athletics for that matter. Are the cuts and bruises that come with shirts necessary to powerlifting? The answer is plainly no. But equipment is not going anywhere. It seems a stretch to suggest that this bruising supports a position that shirts are not safe. Neither does this thread seem to illustrate why equipment is bad for the sport. Sure, shirts enable lifters to bench more than if they didn't use the shirt. However, the shirt doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage over another as shirted lifters compete against others who are also wearing shirts. If you look at this thread a little differently it may just show you another way to view equipped lifting. One that reveals the hard work involved in powerlifting, whether equipped or not. Currently, the lifter who started this thread cannot even lift his raw max with a shirt on. He hasn't developed the skill with the shirt to allow it to touch with lighter weights. Additionally, he may not be able to press higher weights than his raw max as he hasn't figured out the groove of the shirt, how to wear the shirt properly or doesn't have the necessary upper end strength. What the thread provides is a glimpse at the process and elements involved which will be necessary to become a better shirted bencher. It'll take time, perserverance and hard work to move forward, just like raw benching. Certainly, it's different, but shouldn't it still be appreciated for what it is?

Submitted by admin on
Hank, good luck with your first shirt. There's a lot of smart benchers over in Kennelley's forum among others that can help you out. Doc's position, unlike some of the others who argue against equipment, is more reasoned and deserves to be considered by those who are pro equipment. He's not a hater out there flailing his arms saying shirts are evil.

Submitted by Doc Iron (not verified) on
Gentlemen, I've never in my life said that lifters who use equipment don't work hard: they do. I've never even said that lifters who use drugs don't work hard: they do. When a lifter who uses equipment increses their personal best after a hard training cycle I'm sure they get satisfaction from it. When they win a meet I'm sure they get satisfaction from that too. I'm also not going to tell an adult not to use gear, use drugs, smoke, drink, rock climb or do anything else risky. All those things are their choice. I do, however, think gear is bad for the sport, and that's the opinion I'm expressing. It's bad for the sport because it yields results that aren't genuine. It's bad for the sport because people perpetuate a myth that it keeps lifters safe (I don't feel it does). It's bad for the sport because it can in fact lead to injuries (as this thread shows) ... no, not life threatening injuries, but painful, needless injuries nonetheless. I'm realistic enough to agree with you that gear is here to stay. Now that we have men with 2700 and 2800 pound totals and a woman with a 2000 pound total we're never going to go back. Ego won't allow it and neither will money (there's big business producing the next generation of equipment). But in my opinion these things are bad for the sport as well. They make young lifters feel as if they HAVE to use equipment (and probably drugs) to be successful. I've been in the iron game for 3 decades and am secure enough in my accomplishments that it doesn't bother me that Becca Swanson has out totalled me by close to 700 pounds ... but how many young men who are totalling in the 1300 - 1400 pound range will be able to say the same thing? How many of them will spend their hard earned dollars buying generation after generation of the latest greatest gear looking for that 200 pound boost on their bench? How many will start injecting themselves with one substance after another to build mass and strength. I'm guessing a significant portion. Now sure, people used drugs and people looked for other "edges" before gear. I'm not trying to demonize it. I just think on balance it's taken away a lot more from PL than it's added. And the problem isn't unique to PL, btw, many sports have experienced problems because of gear. Golf, where courses have had to be redesigned because they're too short for high tech clubs. Tennis, which has become a boring game (especially on the mens side) because 145 mph serves powered by space age raquets are basically unreturnable. If big league baseball allowed people to use the high tech bats they use in the "beer and hot wings leagues" you'd have to rebuild all the ball fields out there or have games with each side hitting 20 home runs. In my humble opinion sport should be about HUMAN ACHIEVEMENT (especially, a basic, elemental sport like powerlifting). That's when it's real sport, not when it becomes about who has the better piece of equipment.

Submitted by admin on

They make young lifters feel as if they HAVE to use equipment (and probably drugs) to be successful.

Great point. If the superstars of the sport all use equipment, then naturally kids will as well. If they think their heroes are using drugs, again they'll follow in their footsteps. But do those using equipment or gear feel this is a bad thing? Anyone want to offer up an opinion? Does it matter if a 15 year old kid jumps into a shirt before developing even a basic skill and strength level? How do you stop that? Do federations legislate that they can't? Isn't that as bad as the government legislating against steroid use?

And the problem isn't unique to PL, btw, many sports have experienced problems because of gear.

When sports change, traditionalists out of hand, will reject those changes. But rather than problems, many create opportunities. Your choice of golf for instance. Golf's popularity has surged with the new clubs, balls and the younger big hitting players. Maybe baseball would be a more popular game if aluminum bats were allowed. Men's tennis - well we won't touch that one.

That's when it's real sport, not when it becomes about who has the better piece of equipment.

Might a better way to look at this be, it's about who worked hardest to master their equipment? Equipment isn't at the prohibitively expensive level of sports like stock car racing that preclude most from even participating.

Submitted by Hank (not verified) on
I logged in to read about wearing a bench shirt for the first time. Doc deserves to be respected for his ideas and opinions but it might have been more gracious to have posted them in a more appropriate thread. The original poster pretty much wanted to know, "Am I putting on the shirt right?". Jon copied it over here where part of the response was, "It doesn't take a "real man" to say "Hey, I bench 800 pounds but to do it I wear a slingshot piece of equipment that tears skin off my body and I've pumped myself so full of crap that my liver is going to jump out of my mouth by the time I'm 40!" A little reactionary for my tastes. I just like going to the gym and lifting weights. Hell, I'm not even that good at it yet.Maybe I should find a friendlier sport.

Submitted by TheGymMuse on
Hey Hank..., a little reactionary on everyones part (including mine). Jon is the level headed one moderating this debate. Thanks Jon. And to you too Doc..., I know your concern is for the betterment of the sport. Don't be discouraged by the debate as I think opinons are strong in support of each side of the issue. However, we did get away from the basic question of the original poster. Albeit not that far. I think it fair to ask why someone would endure bruising and suffering cuts to lift weight. Especially if the use of the equipment does not significantly improve performance. My response is proper guidence in the use and fitting of the equipment. A lifter using a bench shirt for the first time should never be put in one that cannot be fitted with some relative ease and use one that will allow the lifter to get used to the mechanics once it is on. If you have followed some of my responses, you will hear me refer to certain lifters as being technicians. It has two meanings; 1) the ability to get the most out of the equipment, and 2)proficient form in executing the lift. The ability to get the maximum use of the equipment is not something that will come to you overnight. It takes guidance, practice and exploration to learn what is right for you. The debate over equipment, supplements and performance enhancing drugs (steroids) will rage as long as athletes get stronger and push the limits of past performances. One of the most frustrating things I hear when a new limit is achieved is that the person must be taking steroids. Unless tested, how does anyone know? I hope this helps bring some clarity to what is going on Hank as I think powerlifting is a about as friendly and family oriented as any sport can get. And please keep asking questions. This is the place to get the answers. Lift..., what else?

Submitted by TheGymMuse on
I wanted to ask the following; what brand does most lifters prefer? Inzer or Titan? I have always used Inzer, but the Titan came highly recommended as I trained for the meet. I noticed a lot of lifters using Titan at the meet this past weekend. In fact, I watched as one of the competitors switched shirts between attempts and went from Titan to Inzer than back to the Titan shirt. Wow! (I must be really old in my ways cause I don't think I would be up to trying that)It came as new news to me that Titan made bench shirts. As Inzer (please correct me if I am wrong) was the only manufacturere of shirts at one time. Now there seem to be several manufacturers. I apoligize for the impromtu survey. Lift..., what else?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
I've got 3 competitions under my belt. I don't care for the equipment. I don't train with equipment. I do use the equipment just because it's how everyone else is competing. I look at it as, there's my training and my raw max. At competition it's my raw max + shirt/suit help + hype of being in a meet. I use an Inzer hphd Blast and it usually bruises me a little in the back of the armpit. It depends on how I line the seam up with my arm. Experiment with how it feels by turning the sleeve a quarter inch this way and that. BTW, I missed 2 squat attempts with my new Titan suit just because it was so hard to get it into a full squat.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Might a better way to look at this be, it's about who worked hardest to master their equipment? Equipment isn't at the prohibitively expensive level of sports like stock car racing that preclude most from even participating. many (most?) sports involve an athlete controlling some piece of equipment: bats, racquets, balls, pucks, cars, whatever. at least until recently, the equipment in powerlifting was a BAR. maybe it just needs to be redefined as a different sport, sort of like the difference between pole vaulting and high jumping -- they're both about jumping high, just differently. and as you don't have pole vaulters going around saying they high-jump 18 feet, you wouldn't have shirted, obese belly benchers claiming to actually "bench press" 900 lbs.

Submitted by admin on

Doc deserves to be respected for his ideas and opinions but it might have been more gracious to have posted them in a more appropriate thread.

Hank, point taken about the thread. It can be frustrating to see so many threads devolve into a raw versus shirt debate. However, I don't think that was doc's intent. He was just following up on a discussion from another thread.

Maybe I should find a friendlier sport.

You've found one of the friendliest. Muse hits it right on the head. Give a meet a try or ask one of the top dogs in the sport for help and you'll see.

Submitted by admin on

maybe it just needs to be redefined as a different sport, sort of like the difference between pole vaulting and high jumping -- they're both about jumping high, just differently. and as you don't have pole vaulters going around saying they high-jump 18 feet, you wouldn't have shirted, obese belly benchers claiming to actually "bench press" 900 lbs.

In reality isn't that where we're at now? Although, not a different sport, it's a different event. Like stock car racing, there's many different divisions, but all are stock car racers. Equipped lifter compete against other equipped lifters to see who has the highest bench press. It's still a bench press, it's just an equipped one. Why is there a need for a new sport? Would calling it an equipped bench press be sufficient?

Submitted by admin on

I don't care for the equipment. I don't train with equipment. I do use the equipment just because it's how everyone else is competing.

Are there no unequipped competitions in your area? It must be hard to be competitive with other shirted lifters using a Blast shirt, as shirt technology has advanced so much further. Do you feel the need to upgrade?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Equipped lifter compete against other equipped lifters to see who has the highest bench press. It's still a bench press, it's just an equipped one. Why is there a need for a new sport? Would calling it an equipped bench press be sufficient? you are right, this is basically the current state of affairs. I would say still say that a different name should be used to avoid confusion and distinguish actual "bench pressing." shirted belly lifting isn't "bench pressing" - it's more like "locking out," or "ab touching" or some other term. the point is to not diminish the efforts of people who actually "bench press" by comparing their numbers to someone doing a totally different movement.

Submitted by Hank (not verified) on
I know its friendy. That's why I chose it.I hope to enter a meet by summer 2007. (Sanctimony just makes me bitter). My sports from younger days were cycling and skating (skateboard). Two other sports where your competition cheers you on. Also sports that have undergone huge technological changes in equipment.

Submitted by admin on

shirted belly lifting isn't "bench pressing" - it's more like "locking out," or "ab touching" or some other term. the point is to not diminish the efforts of people who actually "bench press" by comparing their numbers to someone doing a totally different movement.

Why isn't a shirted belly bench a "bench press"? The only difference may be a little lower touch point and the shirt. Most would disagree that a shirted bench press to the belly is not a bench press. It's a shirted bench press. How are raw lifters benches being diminished by acknowledging that? Would you consider a raw bencher with a 4" range of motion a lockouter? Who is comparing raw benchers numbers to shirted ones?

Submitted by admin on
Hank, best of luck training for your meet. Although 2007 is a ways off. Consider giving another meet a try a bit earlier.

Submitted by jd (not verified) on
you guys on here are playing the same record over and over and over get a life stop the bs fighting just go out and have fun and just lift every fucking board i read is the same bs belly this belly that shirt this shirt that raw this raw that what and buch of cry babys =)

Submitted by admin on
Hopefully, we're not fighting. Rather trying to understand each others opinions. At the end of the day we'll take your advice and "just go out and have fun and just lift".

Submitted by Hank (not verified) on
Jon, Don't feel I am ready yet. Raw lifts are currently 385 - 275 - 430. I expect by next year they will be at least 550 - 375 - 550 equipped. Doesn't seem much point in going to a meet and benching 275 at 90 kg. I've been training by myself so far and hope to track down some experienced lifters for a little mentoring

Submitted by TheGymMuse on
Hank, nice numbers and goals! What weight class are you in? Want to make sure I train harder if we meet up ;) If nothing else, do a single lift meet to get your feet wet. You will become addicted. There is nothing like hearing your name called followed by "bar is loaded!" All the training comes pouring out right then. Lift..., what else?

Submitted by admin on
Looks like things are going along well. No matter the numbers though, give it a go. The numbers are only part of the meet experience which include meeting potential mentors.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Hey! I read your post and haven't checked any of the responses yet-I was in girls powerlifting and am about to take it back up-its awesome to get it on the first time-and the pain I found to be normal-blood vessels even pop sometimes and leave bruises or scares-like your experiencing-some thing to help-before you lift-try doing a few push-ups-this is sure to help you get the shirt more over your arms-since you got some large muscle mass there-also-since you couldn't touch your chest-thats a sign to put on more weight-or thats what I've been taught-then you can work on-I don't remember the names of the exeercise-but the half reps of bench and to help the push out of the extra weight-does that make since-I'm not sure-for example-take a rolled up and taped towel-put it on the center of your chest when laying down-then when benching-put on a high percentage of your max-and just tap the towel and go back up-this helped me so much-but yeah-don't be scared to get a smaller shirt-and don't forget the push ups-pain is a given-

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Hopefully, we're not fighting. Rather trying to understand each others opinions. At the end of the day we'll take your advice and "just go out and have fun and just lift". Agreed - no fighting intended, nothing wrong with differing opinions. and it's not to say shirt-belly benching is "wrong," my argument is just that we should make a sharp distinction between that and traditional, raw lifting. guess I'm just an old-fashioned purist type. If people like to shirt bench and it brings them satisfaction, great. I don't get it, but go right ahead. its similar to guys with spotters tag-teaming an obviously-too-heavy lift, or one of those fitness-center types doing heavy quarter (or eighth) squats on a smith machine then trying to show off how strong he is -- it's silly, but if you're having fun, go for it. just don't later go around claiming you "squatted" it. Anyway, again no flaming intended, JMHO.

Submitted by admin on
Eighth squats and on the Smith to boot. Now that's something we need video for.;)

Submitted by admin on

I don't remember the names of the exeercise-but the half reps of bench and to help the push out of the extra weight-

Partial reps, lockouts or maybe board presses.

Submitted by Hank (not verified) on
"again no flaming intended." It's like when someone says. "no offense but..." you know you are about to be offended. This thread is like some Alice in Wonderland one-sided arguement. No one is arguing against lifting raw but the "Raw" camp...sorry "RAW" camp keeps on arguing. "it's silly, but if you're having fun, go for it. just don't later go around claiming you "squatted" it." "It's bad for the sport because it yields results that aren't genuine" "Perhaps we can get track athletes to run faster if we put the spikes INSIDE their shoes." All this vehemence seems to be uncovering some latent insecurities.The reply seems to always be "just my humble opinion" but the constant cry of foul says something very different Ummm RAW guys, nobody's arguing back OK. Let it go.

Submitted by admin on
Yep, let's move on unless there's any first timers with a shirt who have comments or questions.