What passes as a belt in powerlifting is nothing more than a set of artifical abs that people with weak cores can purchase. The belts weigh about five pounds and have gone far beyond the mere purpose of safety.
The same is true of wraps. I've got no problem with wraps, so long as they are nothing more than Marathon Gold Lines. As far as belts and wraps go, the train went off the tracks about the time that Inzer and similar companies entered the picture.
For those interested in getting strong, train without the belt or wraps. If you want to enter a powerlifting contest and have a little fun, go get a basic leather weightlifting belt and some Gold Lines. Train in them a few weeks, instantly up your PR about 60 pounds, and do the meet. It will be a geared lift, but just go along with them when they hand you the trophy for best raw lifter in your class. After all, they don't know any better.
[quote=Anonymous]What passes as a belt in powerlifting is nothing more than a set of artifical abs that people with weak cores can purchase. The belts weigh about five pounds and have gone far beyond the mere purpose of safety.
The same is true of wraps. I've got no problem with wraps, so long as they are nothing more than Marathon Gold Lines. As far as belts and wraps go, the train went off the tracks about the time that Inzer and similar companies entered the picture.
For those interested in getting strong, train without the belt or wraps. If you want to enter a powerlifting contest and have a little fun, go get a basic leather weightlifting belt and some Gold Lines. Train in them a few weeks, instantly up your PR about 60 pounds, and do the meet. It will be a geared lift, but just go along with them when they hand you the trophy for best raw lifter in your class. After all, they don't know any better.[/quote]i can assure you my core is'nt weak but i like the added stability,'just in case' when i'm stepping back into position with over 700 lbs on my back.as far as wraps go, anyone who has used them know they add pounds to your squat so it'hard to consider them raw.however, they do add safety and possibly longevity to your lifting career. one solution could be developing and certifying a grade of wrap that would add safety without giving so much pop to the lift.
I've competed both ways, with and without knee wraps. The only thing I gained from having knee wraps on is knowing I'll get to keep my knee joints longer and that you really can feel your ovaries in your throat if your experienced lifting buddy wraps them for you..
If knee sleeves are allowed (purpose: stabilize the joint!), which some can be tightened or worn just as tight as wraps, wraps should be o.k. too within length specifications. But, to each federation their own... The idea is effective stability to the joint, not adding an advantage to the weight lifted.. IMNSHO, I think wraps are safer for stabilizing the joint than sleeves, but that's just my NSHO...
Someone needs to take a stand and define the rules we are going to adhere to in going forward in this sport we call powerlifting.
The way that Greg Stott separates the genres of powerlifting is exactly what I have been discussing and communicating with MANY lifters for over 3 years now.
That stand is coming soon. Raw lifting will be defined. Classic lifting will be defined. Single ply is pretty much already defined; and Multi Ply is defined. Guess who is going to get to do that? You guys are.
Xtrme Power Television is coming and it is going to offer television coverage, big sponsors, and gradually bigger prize monies. The lines have to be drawn so that we can compare apples to apples. Our sport has to move forward; and in order to do so separating the genres of powerlifting is a must.
My team was able to grow the Raw Unity Meet to where it is now the premiere raw event in the United States. We were then able to (with a lot of luck) get Raw Unity televised on Fox Sports. Now we have multiple shows that are going to be taped and aired on Fox Sports. We plan to define the different genres of powerlifting and be here for you guys-the lifters. Our hope is to have raw events televised, classic powerlifting televised, single ply televised, and multi ply televised. Eventually we would like to have the best of the best battle it out in ALL GENRES of powerlifting-competing 4 times a year in big venues with a scoring system with points for placing. At the end of the year, the overall champions will be crowned. It is marketable, the public can relate to it, and the lifters will eventually be able to call themselves true champions.
Please join with us and help to build the momentum.
In Strength and Health,
Eric Talmant
www.rawunitymeet.comwww.erictalmant.com
CITIUS,ALTIUS,FORTIUS
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Raw Lifting, Knee wraps ,knee sleeves If you want Raw go Raw No equipment! Stop crying because some groups allow knee wraps and some don't! It's easy go lift where you want! What's the Big Deal because some one doesn't like Knee wraps! Just a bunch of kids crying over Hey they get to wear them and we don't! That's just like saying your group as records but our group records are better! Make your Buck and enjoy the SPORT! POWERLIFTING!
GearGuy!
Sir,thats the way it should be,but dont expect to hold RAW records,when you are using knee wraps.I dont compete in a RAW meet with a benchshirt on,and expect to break RAW records.See the point?
[quote=Anonymous]We wear wraps in Raw and its going to stay that way, don't care who likes it.[/quote]
I don't care how "RAW" is defined. I don't care what fed you lift in or how much gear you wear. I just like to know what gear was worn during a lift. I won't acknowledge anyones posted lift online unless it's from a reputable website like Powerlifting Watch.
Example: Joe Blow benches 520, deadlifts 645 and squats 705 @ 220 pounds. Do you care? You shouldn't, because you have no idea what that person had on.
The only legit multiply records I really pay attention to are the national and world records because I don't wear gear, so I have no idea what to expect from someone while wearing it. I just assume the very top lifters in each class must be legitimately strong. I might sound like I don't like gear, but seriously I don't care about that. As long as you enjoy what you are doing, it's all good. I choose not to wear gear because I feel it's complicating and expensive.
I don't understand why anyone would get upset about what you said Eric. Unless they're a lazy ass meet promoter too lazy to get out there and advance our sport with the general public. Bodybuilding wasn't crap before Joe Weider and look at it now. Do you really think the general public wants to look like a bodybuilders? Hell NO!!!!! But they love to see the freaks and some day with the help of the powerlifting "Joe Weider" they'll watch the powerlifting freaks too. Good luck to you Eric.
www.socobarbell.com
[quote=soco barbell]I don't understand why anyone would get upset about what you said Eric. Unless they're a lazy ass meet promoter too lazy to get out there and advance our sport with the general public. Bodybuilding wasn't crap before Joe Weider and look at it now. Do you really think the general public wants to look like a bodybuilders? Hell NO!!!!! But they love to see the freaks and some day with the help of the powerlifting "Joe Weider" they'll watch the powerlifting freaks too. Good luck to you Eric.
www.socobarbell.com[/quote]
Amen!
J Hack.
[quote=soco barbell]I don't understand why anyone would get upset about what you said Eric. Unless they're a lazy ass meet promoter too lazy to get out there and advance our sport with the general public.
www.socobarbell.com[/quote]
How did this thread turn into Eric Talmant bashing? He was simply commenting on the subject which was knee wraps.
Keep up the good work Eric. Sounds like jealousy to me and if you're making people jealous, you must be doing something right.
Funny enough, one of many reasons I stopped lifting in gear was because I felt that my knees were actually damaged MORE with knee wraps. When I wrapped my knees as tight as I could (since that's what it took to get every possible pound out of them), I could feel my knee joints grinding against themselves from extreme compression. That, combined with increased vertical load on them due to bigger weights that I was handling because of gear, left a bit of a mess inside my knees, judging by what I saw on the screen when one of them was getting scoped. So I'm not exactly sold on the whole "you need wraps to protect your knee joints" line of thinking.
A post was taken down so I can't quote it exactly. It had a tone that Talmant had only promoted 3 meets and now he thinks he is know it all. Just trying to take over the sport. Kind of had an "I dare you tell us how to run our business" feel. That is not exactly how it was said but that is how I took it. I do not know Talmant at all but... The guy has promoted 3 meets and his 3rd one was on TV, maybe he knows what he is doing.
Maybe the best way to look at this is look at olympic weightlifting. They can use a belt though many do not and they can use knee sleeves but not wraps. Another thing - Powerlifitng has really never been raw. Suits have been around for ages just not made of the material today's suits are. But they sure did wear them tight back in the day and they used wraps on knees and wrists. I lift single-ply but I say in the interest of the sport allow only a single-ply suit made of the older poly material and eliminate bench shirts all together. Keep the wraps and for pete's sake squat deep.
I have a pair of TP5000 wraps. They definitely help my squat. 335x6 w/o them. 375x7 with them on. I probably don't wrap my knees properly, but they still help. I have to admit they boost my ego. I don't think I could max 400 without them.
I don't think gear protects anyone unless you use it and push your raw numbers. Most people are lying if they tell you they use gear for protection from injuries. Most people just push even heavier weights with it on which increases the chance of injury. At the least it offsets the gain in safety, no more. How many lifters seriously buy gear for safety. It's just an excuse. The same lifter who says they wear gear for safety probably rides a crotch rocket with no helmet.
Safety = Nice Excuse
gear and safety
If the 100% RAW federation changed the rules saying gear is allowed because they want safety all of there records would be broken in one meet. How does that make gear safer when the reason for wearing it was defeated. Now lifters are using so much weight that if they get off balance a little bit they break bones. Or worse yet they have to use a monolift.
What is raw? Should be an easy answer right? Apparently not, lets examine history a little. The sport started without written rules of what equipment could be used. So what did they use? Everything under the sun thats what! Raw did not start in 1964. This is not to say that all lifters wore wraps and other equipment. The 60's did however, include lifters that used bed sheets, wraps, Cut off denim pants, canvas coaching shorts, cut tennis balls and whatever they could find. Most lifters though, were purists and shunned those who wore all the crap. By Nov 1972 the AAU banned all wraps and bs equipment. All lifts from january 1973- Dec 1973 were without wraps. That was the only time that lifters were truly raw. So you see, wraps have been argued over since we started using them. Decades later, Al Segal of the AAU (at the time) starts holding meets under what HE called raw this was around 1996. So technically he revisited the arguments of 1973 and coined the term raw. So by that fact raw is what big al said it was and no wraps were included. If we want to lift like the guys of old and wear knee wraps then wear ace bandages not Titaniums, THP, RPM, black mambas, strangulators or whatever the super wraps of today are called. Classic powerlifting is with wraps thats how it started. Wraps were banned in 1973 but the term raw began in '96 and it was without wraps.
Ok, now I dont know what all the fuss is about with Eric. Seems to me he's taking powerlifting in the right direction (but he is not alone). Anyway, call it what you want raw this raw that just dont compare a pure raw squat of 600lbs to a classic squat of 600lb wearing strangulators, anacondas, or dragon's breath double radial titanium plated super wrap 2010s!
[quote=Anonymous]Heres an idea
how about we do what ever we please. Remember, this is america. This is why we have different federations, don't like it tuff.[/quote]
Here's another idea: If you want to do whatever you want, then don't compete. Competition, by necessity, requires a leveled field from which to start. The gyms are full of people doing "whatever they please", and there is no way to compare the results accurately.
Knee Sleeves or Knee wraps provide protection for the knee area. I will not lift in a raw meet without wraps or sleeves.
100% Raw org. allows no protection. The guys that run this org are mostly bench pressers only.
Look at their meets, very few of their lifters enter the full POWERLIFT MEET other than teenagers.Vast majority of there adult members bench press or push/pull.
100% Raw should not set standards powerlifting.
i feel the ADAU is the standard for true RAW powerlifting.... its you against the weight... and thats it. you can say all you want about safty but i dont even use a belt and im fine. maybe some ppl need it or what ever and thats ok too... but dont try to say knee wraps are raw because u "need them"........ i feel powerlifters need to stop being bitches and buck up.... its a great sport and the only ppl holding it back is the powerlifers and ego..... Eric i agree w u... you are not only right on but you are stepping up to the plate and doing something great! i wish more ppl would do that....
Who cares about wraps, anyway? I got those new Escalator socks and added 45 lb to my squat and 35 to my deadlift the first time I wore them.
*is stampeded by raw lifters wanting my socks*
Wraps are Raw and thats the end of the story.
There are federations that will always use them and don't care about TV,Eric or anything and thats the way it should be. Everyone is entitled to their opinon and everyone will always be allowed to do as they please.
Bill
i get that feds allow them and call it raw.... but how and why would you truly believe it is?? if you use something that adds a noticable amount of weight to a lift how can you say that is raw?? it isnt... seems alot of ppl are in denial
If your post starts with I don't compete or you haven't competed, you should not even say anything. I think that raw is belt only. I wore wraps last meet, as they were allowed as raw in SPF and if I did not, I would be punished in power rankings. And for the record, I get about 30 pounds out of them. But, to the belt should be considered gear....gay! It is a safety tool. If the belt adds some weight, o well. It is easy to slip your disc. I know, you with the 300 pound squat and deadlift don't wear one. I am sure that with a belt and knee you could hit 700. hahaha
[quote=Adam H.]If your post starts with I don't compete or you haven't competed, you should not even say anything. I think that raw is belt only. I wore wraps last meet, as they were allowed as raw in SPF and if I did not, I would be punished in power rankings. And for the record, I get about 30 pounds out of them. But, to the belt should be considered gear....gay! It is a safety tool. If the belt adds some weight, o well. It is easy to slip your disc. I know, you with the 300 pound squat and deadlift don't wear one. I am sure that with a belt and knee you could hit 700. hahaha[/quote]
I guess you haven't seen KK's 939 raw DL without a belt. No one needs a belt, once you get used to it you can lift the same weight. Actually the belt teaches abs the opposite way to support the body. Instead of flexing in they push out against the belt. It sure didn't help my back when I first hurt it and now I have to watch my back like a hawk not to re-injure it.
J Hack.
Saying that knee wraps should not be considered raw is crazy to me. To me that is like saying that Gatorade is illegal in tested federations because it is a sports enhancing drink. I see it as a safety precaution. If they are not considered raw, then belts should not be considered raw either. Someone could blow out a knee just as easy as they could slip a disc.
We use wraps in the SPF and not all of us care about the rankings, we care about being able to stay in this sport longer and we also care about being able to do things the way we think they should be done. Last time I checked we are still in America. Big John
nobody is tryin to stop people from using wraps...the problem is when..
a guy squats 600 WITHOUT wraps
a guy squats 610 WITH wraps.....now is considered the stronger guy on the rankings and now the guy WITHOUT wraps record is gone
with wraps is raw
without wraps is raw .....just two different things
why in the hell people cant see that??
should have two different categories
with wraps....
without wraps...
or the way they said it with the classic and all that
[quote=joecool]nobody is tryin to stop people from using wraps...the problem is when..
a guy squats 600 WITHOUT wraps
a guy squats 610 WITH wraps.....now is considered the stronger guy on the rankings and now the guy WITHOUT wraps record is gone
with wraps is raw
without wraps is raw .....just two different things
why in the hell people cant see that??
should have two different categories
with wraps....
without wraps...
or the way they said it with the classic and all that [/quote]
I posted something similar. "should have two different categories" exactly. Bottom line is they increase your lift. This stuff isn't rocket science. It's amazing someone would argue this point.
I guess you haven't seen that he also wears a belt alot in comp when squatting. I go without a belt with heavy weight, but just get over the belt issue. We know what strong is. If you actually look at someone that squats a huge number with a belt, do you actually say, wonder what he could do without a belt. The knee wrap is one thing but this is out of hand.
I don't think that knee wraps vs. no knee wraps is resolvable, so probably calling knee wraps "classic" and no knee wraps "raw" will at least keep comparisons apples to apples. I also don't think that any one fed should offer both, because I doubt there would be sufficient demand for both. But a fed that defined raw as using knee wraps would be more universally called classic, and without would be called raw.
Those that want knee wraps for raw keep pointing back to belts, saying that since belts add pounds, and all forms of raw allow belts, then why not knee wraps? Let's try this as a basic difference. Compare belts now with belts from 25 years ago. How much difference is there? Very little. Can you say the same thing about knee wraps? No! Knee wraps of today give much more rebound than knee wraps of 25 years ago. Even today, can you envision a situation in which people say, "wow, you gotta get those new knee wraps. They give at least 20 lbs more than anything else I've ever tried." Sure you can. How about with belts? The fact is, belts are either there or not there. They help, but they also protect. In fact, anything involving lifting almost universally uses lifting belts. Not so with knee wraps.
Which is all to say that I believe that the advocates for knee wraps in raw are wrong, but stubborn, and that rather than confuse the issue of which lifts are actually raw, separate them into different categories.
You can go to any local sports store and buy belts, wrist wraps, and knee wraps and then go to the gym and use them and see other lifters using them dating way back to the old days when others lifted. I never heard people in the gym say "I wear these knee wraps or belt or wrist wraps because they give me extra pounds". I also think there is a psycholigical advantage to using heavier weight with knee wraps on and that might add to what you think is extra pounds.
This type of lifting using wraps has been around forever and is true to strength training.
Now fast forward to today and you cannot go into a sports store and buy a squat suit, bench shirt or deadlifting suit. As the salesman and he will probably say "what?" Go to your local gym and put on a bench shirt and listen to people who say, "what the heck is he wearing?" Then most people lie and say it's for support and won't tell the average gym lifter they wear it because they get an extra 200-300 lbs on their lifts.
So those are the two types of lifting we've seen over the years. Wraps have always been around for joint support, and safety purposes not because some lifter can get hundreds of pounds out of them. I've never heard a bench pressers say they get a ton out of their wrist wraps and that's why they where them. Then you have the 2nd type of lifting with suits and shirts.
This is also why the general public doesn't give a rats ass about assisted lifting and considers us a joke. So get 100 lbs out of gear and some get hundreds of lbs out of gear. But when they see some squat or bench wearing only wraps they can relate and know how strong that person is.
So:
wraps=original lifts (always been around in weightlifting call it raw or some other name).
suits and shirts=assisted lifting.
I thought safety was important in this sport...but since there is a problem with wraps then if you want to take that out how no belts or sleeves and let that be raw....I can see how an erector suit and squat suit is not raw but knee wraps is raw, a belt is raw....
everyone says knee wraps and a belt can't be compared in terms of how much help they give. i find that if i wear a belt right it'll stop me in the hole right at proper depth and i get about 50 pounds out of it. do wraps increase the weight one can lift? yes. is it unfair if it's allowed to everyone? no. i think it's a safety issue.
[quote=Greg N]everyone says knee wraps and a belt can't be compared in terms of how much help they give. i find that if i wear a belt right it'll stop me in the hole right at proper depth and i get about 50 pounds out of it. do wraps increase the weight one can lift? yes. is it unfair if it's allowed to everyone? no. i think it's a safety issue.[/quote]
Do you? So if a new wrap material was developed that gave much more rebound, you wouldn't use it because it doesn't add more safety? Of course you would. And it wouldn't be any safer! On the other hand, explain how you could even go about improving a belt to add pounds. Nothing has been figured on that in the last 25 years, so I wouldn't think too much about it. The fact is, a belt is a level playing field (and it doesn't have any rebound), knee wraps are all rebound, and a constant chase to find more. And not raw!
Everyone of you people have been crying for years right here on this forum that there has been to many divisions of the sport and it is to watered down and there is no competition any more but YET you same people want to add another division. You make no sense what so ever. If you call belts and wraps Classic and then add in RAW (no belt or wraps) again isnt that watering it down even further? And for what, just so half of you can feel like you got your way about something. Well look at i this way, half of you already have your way about it the way it is without any changes. Look at the pole 50% against 50% for. Thats the way every topic on here is. What good is it and what comes out of it. Heres the answer more silly hits on the site that makes nothing any better for the sport of Powerlifting. Any subject that is put on here turns out the same way and any time someone says something about it it gets deleted.
The answer for the lifters is lift where you like and go by the set of rules you like. There will never be one set of rules and rightly so there shouldn't be. Everyone has the right to do as they please and no one likes being told what they can and can't do. No matter if there where changes made every day some one wouldn't like them and still be on here complaining about them and then saying they wish things were the way they use to be. The federations that we have aren't going to chance simply because some one thinks he or she knows best and there will be more federations in the future, facts of life.
[quote=Anonymous]Everyone of you people have been crying for years right here on this forum that there has been to many divisions of the sport and it is to watered down and there is no competition any more but YET you same people want to add another division. You make no sense what so ever. If you call belts and wraps Classic and then add in RAW (no belt or wraps) again isnt that watering it down even further? And for what, just so half of you can feel like you got your way about something. Well look at i this way, half of you already have your way about it the way it is without any changes. Look at the pole 50% against 50% for. Thats the way every topic on here is. What good is it and what comes out of it. Heres the answer more silly hits on the site that makes nothing any better for the sport of Powerlifting. Any subject that is put on here turns out the same way and any time someone says something about it it gets deleted.
The answer for the lifters is lift where you like and go by the set of rules you like. There will never be one set of rules and rightly so there shouldn't be. Everyone has the right to do as they please and no one likes being told what they can and can't do. No matter if there where changes made every day some one wouldn't like them and still be on here complaining about them and then saying they wish things were the way they use to be. The federations that we have aren't going to chance simply because some one thinks he or she knows best and there will be more federations in the future, facts of life.[/quote]
Of course there are too many. I've said straight up that "classic" is b.s. If you turn back the clock to the time before supportive lifting suits, there certainly weren't wraps available that gave anything close to what wraps give now. Yet there is the group that really wants to be raw, but couldn't "possibly" lift without knee wraps. The reality is that you can't fairly compare squats with and without wraps, so, sadly, if there are to be rankings, they need to be ranked separately.
This is a great exercise in sociology. I'm all for a single set of rules, but this is America, where we argue over everything. Believe it or not, our dis-unity is spreading to other countries, some of which were originally affiliated with only one international organization. In those countries, you lifted by their rules or you did'nt lift (in competition). As long as people (any group) is more interested in getting their way than developing concensus, life will go on the way it has since I started competing (1983).
Comments
What passes as a belt in
Anonymous wrote:What passes
I've competed both ways,
Knee wraps are more psych
Someone needs to take a
Raw Lifting, Knee wraps
We wear wraps in Raw and its
Sir,thats the way it should
I don't care how "RAW" is
I don't understand why
soco barbell wrote:I don't
soco barbell wrote:I don't
Funny enough, one of many
A post was taken down so I
Here in Louisville we have
Raw is Belt and wraps and it
Maybe the best way to look
I have a pair of TP5000
If the 100% RAW federation
What is raw? Should be an
Heres an idea how about we
Anonymous wrote:Heres an
Knee Sleeves or Knee wraps
i feel the ADAU is the
Who cares about wraps,
wraps are not raw end of
Wraps are Raw and thats the
i get that feds allow them
If your post starts with I
Adam H. wrote:If your post
Saying that knee wraps
We use wraps in the SPF and
nobody is tryin to stop
joecool wrote:nobody is
oh I see we need more
its always been raw and will
The power rankings take the
What about mono's? Don't
I guess you haven't seen
Sex without a condom is raw,
I don't think that knee
You can go to any local
I thought safety was
everyone says knee wraps and
Greg N wrote:everyone says
Everyone of you people have
Anonymous wrote:Everyone of
Goes the ADAU use knee
Anonymous wrote:Goes the
This is a great exercise in
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