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Are Winners in Untested Meets Using?

In a thread at the 100% RAW forum, Sean Katterle asks members whether they believe that lifters who win untested pro, nationals, or world level meets are using performance enhancing drugs. Is that an accurate assumption? Is it a fair one to make?

Jesse Israel: "No, I am not of the belief that all that win are using performance enhancing supplements."

Rich Hutchison: "Yes, my gut reaction to anyone winning a big untested meet is to assume that he/she is a drug user. That doesn't make me happy, and it's a sorry state of affairs, but I truly believe that I'd be right a lot more often than wrong. It depends on the results to some degree; e.g., I don't believe that ANYONE can bench 800 pounds raw and drug free. Why else not test?"

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Sorry, but just because it is not tested does not mean you are using. And news flash, drug tested means you past the test, not you are drug free. Wake up and taste reality once in awhile.

The problem is not enhancement it is disregard for the rules of performance.

I have won state & nationals titles in non-tested meets and don't use any illegal supplements!

TRAIN HARD
"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
INZER ADVANCE DESIGNS
BMF SPORTS
USP LABS
ADRENALINE GEAR

Well depends on the federation Willie ;o)

Anonymous wrote:
Well depends on the federation Willie ;o)

apf, apa, slp, weopf,etc!

TRAIN HARD
"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
INZER ADVANCE DESIGNS
BMF SPORTS
USP LABS
ADRENALINE GEAR

The only problem I have with this issue is when the "random" picks are lifters who finish 2nd or 3rd, yet ignore lifters that set WRs or win best lifter, etc. which would seem much more logical.

What year did JT Hall win APF nationals?

Anonymous wrote:
What year did JT Hall win APF nationals?

Don't try to put words in my mouth! I never competed in the APF Nationals! That particular Apf meet was in Middletown,OH several years ago. Do your research and find out which federation national meet I'm talking about! Remember, my previous post said state & national meets.

TRAIN HARD
"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
INZER ADVANCE DESIGNS
BMF SPORTS
USP LABS
ADRENALINE GEAR

Hate to tell you this, but I know of guys who were on stuff and lifted/won tested meets. One of them thought he was "drug free" because he'd been off for a month.
It's not everyone, but there are some out there who do it. Guess those trophies mean alot to them.

I used to lift drug free and lifted in tested and untested meets at that time. I have never been to a supposed drug tested meet where there wasn't someone there that was definitely using and not tested. That being said, I always liked lifting in the untested meets being that at least I was competing againist honest people back in my drug free days.

they are very common in our sport, You would be surprised not only to know the top lifters, but lifters of all levels even older master lifters are using.

NASAKYCHAIRMAN wrote:
I have won state & nationals titles in non-tested meets and don't use any illegal supplements!

TRAIN HARD
"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
INZER ADVANCE DESIGNS
BMF SPORTS
USP LABS
ADRENALINE GEAR

Big Willie does not want to use roids b/c that would make him SMALL WILLIE. LOL.

ive never used a drug in my life! o wait i haven't won a big meet either... nm

I heard Nasa is considering going untested federation next year!!!!!!!! Big Willie is going to be EXTRA BIG WILLIE!!!

you are comparing Kennelly passing one test to Siders-lol! Put him in a single ply IPF rules after he SQ and before he DL. Benchers are benchers, not even close to people who train 3 lifts. As for JT Hall, if you have not won APF or USAPL nationals, you have not won a nationals.

one of my training partners dr john mcClaren is drug free. he competes both usapl and apf. He should place well at the wpc worlds in november.

I wish we could depend on honesty where people truly told us what they were on rather than wasting our funds testing people. I have to say generally speaking that people who have cheated in the tested feds and got caught then move to the untested feds, where at least they are honestly competing with regard to their drugging. The looser rule sets in most untested feds also lead to "huge" lifts that would never pass in the ironically tighter truly tested feds, i.e. usapl, aau, adau. Places where you are tested both in your form and your person. Places where you get a minimal amount of equipment assistance.

So yes, the question being "assumption" of drug usage in the untested feds, yes, a drug free athlete like myself, lifting in tested feds, does generally guess those not lifting in tested feds (REAL ONES, not the ones who "test" and do not post the failures!), that we pay for our cards and testing to presumably minimize the number of drug users. This is not truly the case, as there are people who cheat in USAPL/IPF obviously in particular...and once in awhile, they actually catch some.

But what otherwise is the drug free lifter to do? The reality that a truly drug free for life lifter is at a disadvantage against a drug user is a fact, not fictional. Even the exceptional drug free athlete will be unlikely to defeat those who are cheating in the ranks of their tested federation.

And an examination of card fees and entry fees in untested federations? they are as expensive, and what do you get? Are not most for profit groups that have people squabbling over ego driven motives, rather than serving the lifters?

For the record, I've won a USAPL nationals. I've also been tested a good deal more times than I should be... but what are the options? lift where there are "no rules" essentially and have my lifts questioned due to a lack of judging or too much equipment allowed, no matter what I choose to personally use or not use?

What's the drug free athlete to do. I really wish those who do not follow the rules would go untested and end this nonsense.

Anonymous wrote:
NASAKYCHAIRMAN wrote:
I have won state & nationals titles in non-tested meets and don't use any illegal supplements!

TRAIN HARD
"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
INZER ADVANCE DESIGNS
BMF SPORTS
USP LABS
ADRENALINE GEAR

Big Willie does not want to use roids b/c that would make him SMALL WILLIE. LOL.

LOL

honestly, i think mark bell has some balls for coming on his brothers documentary and being completely straightforward with what he uses. when you compete in an untested fed you certainly arent committing some horrible sin for being on anabolics...that kind of honesty seems to be rare in powerlifting and has made me a big fan of mark's. i wish others would do the same

Here is the deal. Most of the people that lift in non-tested federations are on drugs. That is a fact. The reason the don't compete in the tested feds is that they can't afford the masking agents needed to pass the drug test, like Kennelly had the one time in history that he was tested. However I do know of some people that lift in the non-tested federations because they are the only ones that are close to home. But more often than not they are on steroids.

Whoever was talking shit about Kennelly beating siders at Bench America 3. I have some news for you. Brian Siders is a POWERLIFTER not a bench presser. He and Kennelly train in different situations. He trains single ply, heels down, with a long pause. Kennelly trains double ply, heels up, touch and go.

I have a lot of respect for Ryan as an assisted lifter. I saw a news reel of him when he was 23, and he did 605 raw, touch and go style. Fast foward to the Road To The Arnold video and the last scene is the day after the Arnold and he is shaking with 635. I know he just competed the day before, but come on 7-8 years is enough to get your raw bench up a little more than 40lbs. That is all you do for god sake!

Sean Katterle wrote:

Rich Hutchison wrote:...
" That's a great post Rich. (Sarcasm)....

Don't be too hard on Rich, Sean. He is 67 years old, lifts as raw as you get -- as in not even a belt -- and still manages to win Best Masters Lifter, if not best lifter overall in nearly every contest he competes in. In short, he's a purist, who has paid his dues and has a right to his opinions.

Quote:
I suppose you've never used anything illegal. You never smoked marijuana, not even in your college days. You've never had 3 beers or cocktails and driven yourself home? You've never taken a pain killer or muscle relaxer without a prescription, even when your shoulders were killing you or your lower back was locking up. You've never tried anabolics.

Er...um...[sputter].... Hey, I'm a child of the '60s, damn it!

Not that I give a shit, but just to weigh in on the subject, I'd say those who enter "untested" in a meet that offers tested and untested divisions are pretty much admitting they've used a banned substance -- else why not enter "tested"? Of course, that substance may have been a recreational drug, but I would think it steroids, in most cases.

Love your articles, Sean. Keep up the good work!

Just because you win an untested meet doesn't mean you are on.

But I got to say that one thing I like about untested meets is that there isn't anyone trying to lie about whether or not they use. Nothing like a good tested meet that has people who have been off long enough to pass the test.

IMHO untested is the true level playing field. Untested unlimited gear, if you got the guts to do it give it a try and see if it will work.

ya, cos the people in the tested single ply do not have any guts

Funny how this works. Someone wins a big tested meet (IPF Worlds, whatever) and the comments are that they just somehow "beat the test". And some poeple are so sure of it that they could just wet themselves.

But guys win big untested meets and there's no telling. You can't be sure. He probably wasn't on anything.

What a load of crap. I realize that these posts get different people to respond, but just in general, do you people ever do an honest self-examination? What are your values? Do you know what you stand for? My problem isn't with your opinons, it's with the double standards that seem so common among internet judges-of-character.

What kind of sense would it make if all the drug users competed in tested organizations and all the drug free guys competed un-tested? I'll break it down for you -- It would make no sense at all, so it probably wouldn't happen.

Here's the truth:
For 90% of the posters on this site: There are people out there that are capable of doing more than you ever thought possible WITHOUT breaking any rules of the organization. That means, lo and behold, there are people who can win the biggest (tested) meet in the world and be 100% clean. You're just going to have to expand your mind to grasp that one. There are people with more talent than you have considered humanly possible. Plain and simple.

There are also people who can win non-tested meets without using an illegal substance. I've known a couple of them. These are also very talented lifters.

The point here is to find a guiding principle. I have been wrongfully accused of steroid use. It kind of ticked me off a little because I felt that these people were discounting my hard work. So I decided a principle for my life would be to not accuse anyone without REAL evidence. "Real" being the key word.
*****
Someone posting a big total is not evidence of drug use.
*****
Maybe the people who accuse everyone of being on steroids have never lifted big enough weight to be wrongfully accused. Shame, really.

Derek Willis wrote:
Here is the deal. Most of the people that lift in non-tested federations are on drugs. That is a fact. The reason the don't compete in the tested feds is that they can't afford the masking agents needed to pass the drug test, like Kennelly had the one time in history that he was tested. However I do know of some people that lift in the non-tested federations because they are the only ones that are close to home. But more often than not they are on steroids.

say WHAT?!

It's thoughtful of you to want to give us, "the deal" and a, "fact" but you're high. Lots of people just want to wear the extra gear; some are against drug testing on principle; some don't like the rules or the feds themselves that test.

Derek Willis wrote:
Whoever was talking shit about Kennelly beating siders at Bench America 3. I have some news for you. Brian Siders is a POWERLIFTER not a bench presser. He and Kennelly train in different situations. He trains single ply, heels down, with a long pause. Kennelly trains double ply, heels up, touch and go.

(It wasn't me.) I was there, and Kennelly got a bad call, IMO. Brian just couldn't lock out that night. The style differences you point out serve only to illustrate Ryan's terrific effort as a, 'fish out of water'. They lifted under Brian's rules (as I recall).

Derek Willis wrote:
I have a lot of respect for Ryan as an assisted lifter. I saw a news reel of him when he was 23, and he did 605 raw, touch and go style. Fast foward to the Road To The Arnold video and the last scene is the day after the Arnold and he is shaking with 635. I know he just competed the day before, but come on 7-8 years is enough to get your raw bench up a little more than 40lbs. That is all you do for god sake!

Okay, check yourself. You obviously have no idea what it feels like the day after going big, and nobody goes bigger than Ryan. Tell you what: I'm callin' my shot now - I believe Ryan's gonna take a shot at the raw record within the next year. When he doesn't shake with 635 (giggle), please come back and admit you don't know nuttin'.

I personally don't agree with someone cheating-in the fact if it is supposed to be a drug free competition and someone is using a banned substance they are morally wrong competing under those standards. In the same regard, if someone is using illegal equipment they are also cheating/breaking the rules. But I have no issue with someone using drugs to enhance performance as long as it is a federation where there is no testing.

You can also argue that if someone is genetically gifted, they have the muscle and bone structure to lift heavy weights and maybe they have the hormonal makeup that lets them make incredible gains in strength, are they cheating vs your average joe who has average genetics. Now the average joe takes some performance enhancing substances, this may equal the playing field a little vs the genetic freak but we all know that just taking steroids doesn't necessarily mean you are going to become strong. There still is a ton of work that needs to be done by the average joe. I'm just throwing this out there, I haven't seen anyone make any comments about genetics and the role they play. I think that if you are going to compete then compete within the rules of your organization, don't cry about someone using a double ply suit if your wearing a single ply in an double ply organization and vice versa on the tested vs non-tested orgs. Just my .02

I found this article I thought it would be interesting to share with this discussion:

Unfair May Be Fair as Genetics Conflate Steroids

By Curtis Eichelberger and Aaron Kuriloff

April 30 (Bloomberg) -- Golfer Tiger Woods enhanced his vision to 20/15 with laser eye surgery. Football wide receiver Terrell Owens recovered more quickly from injuries by sleeping in a high-pressure chamber. And Olympic distance running hopeful Dan Browne extended his stamina by living in an altitude house that increased his oxygen-carrying red blood cells.

While athletes including the sprinter Marion Jones have lost gold medals, championships and eligibility for taking drugs, neither Woods nor Owens nor Browne was investigated by Congress or labeled a cheat by any U.S. sporting group. Their training and medical treatments are permitted under current rules.

Discoveries in genetics, physiology and nanotechnology are creating new challenges to definitions of cheating. Sports executives including Atlanta Falcons President Rich McKay and former World Anti-Doping Agency chief Dick Pound say a reconsideration of what's fair may lead to more-invasive testing, rules designed for emerging technologies and even legalizing banned substances if they become so commonplace they confer no advantage.

``We have become a fusion of humanity and technology,'' said Julian Savulescu, Uehiro Professor of Practical Ethics at Oxford University in England. ``We're not living in the kind of ideal world where we wrestle naked in oil and the strongest man wins. That is just not what professional sport is about today.''

Doping has gotten some of the world's most famous athletes in trouble. Jones returned five Olympic gold medals and went to jail this year after admitting to using steroids. Cyclist Floyd Landis lost his 2006 Tour de France title after testing positive for testosterone. And more than 80 Major League Baseball players were identified in Senator George Mitchell's report for using steroids or human growth hormone.

Fair-Unfair Line Blurred

The New York Yankees pitcher Andy Pettitte may have been unfairly tarred, according to at least one university study. Pettitte was named in the Mitchell report after saying he used human growth hormone in 2002 and 2004 while recovering from an elbow injury. A Stanford University study published in March found the substance would have little effect on a top athlete's performance.

Athletes themselves say medical advances are blurring the line between fair and unfair.

``You are taught from the time (you) are little to take any possible advantage you can get to make yourself better,'' said Chicago Cubs pitcher Kerry Wood in an interview. ``You are always trying to look for an edge.'' Wood hasn't been linked to any cheating.

Laser Eye Surgery

Tampa Bay Devil Rays pitcher David Price, the first selection in the 2007 draft, doesn't want competitors to use performance-enhancing drugs to offset any advantage he has on the mound. And yet he says he does plan to have laser eye surgery to improve his vision.

``Just because you are born with 20-20 you (get) an upper hand?'' he said. ``No. I think you are born with a disadvantage because everyone else is born with 20-20.''

Woods had Lasik surgery, which uses a laser to reshape the cornea, in October 1999.

Mike Adams, a 6-foot-8, 315-pound offensive tackle from Dublin (Ohio) Coffman High School, is the third most-talented high school football player entering college this year, according to rating agency Rivals.com. It would be wrong for a player as big and strong as he to take steroids, he says.

``Maybe you are not big enough to play a certain sport no matter how hard you work at it,'' said Adams, who graduated from high school early and has started taking classes at Ohio State University in Columbus, where he plans to play football on scholarship. ``I think it's different for smaller guys who can't compete without it. It's still wrong, but at least you can understand.''

Rules May Evolve

Pound, who was an Olympic swimmer and is the former president of the World Anti-Doping Agency, said more than 1,600 scientists, doctors and sports officials review WADA's list of banned substances every year to consider adding or removing drugs from the banned list. Sports are built around rules designed to ensure fair competition, Pound says.

``One of the things we agree upon is that we won't take the drugs that we've agreed will give us a competitive advantage,'' he says. The central principles are ``whether what you are going to do is performance enhancing, is it dangerous to the health of the athlete and is it contrary to a defined term of spirit of sports,'' he says.

At the same time, Pound acknowledges that rules have to change in response to medical advances and new practices.

``If it evolves to the point where everyone takes anabolic steroids and that's regarded as normal, then maybe the rules can change,'' he said.

Gene Doping

The anti-doping agency says the greatest cheating threat in the next decade is the emerging science of using cells, genes or other genetic elements to enhance the body. WADA Science Director Oliver Rabin has spent more than $6.5 million developing tests for gene doping, which he says athletes may try by the 2012 Olympics in London.

Lee Sweeney, chairman of the physiology department at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Medicine and a member of WADA's medical board, gained fame in the late 1990s when he injected mice with a synthetic gene that increased their muscle by 30 percent, even without exercise.

``If genetically, one day down the road we will be able to design people, then sports will be done, because how are we going to determine who is best?'' said Texas A&M University track coach Pat Henry.

The Falcons' McKay, a member of the National Football League's Competition Committee, said the burden is on sports' rule makers.

Non-Athletic Competition

``When there's a written rule and the written rule is violated, then in my mind it's cheating,'' McKay said. ``When there's no written rule, or someone is seeking an edge that isn't otherwise prohibited, that's competitive edge.''

As technology and medicine change, regulators need to be agile in determining when an advantage turns unfair, he said.

``It might turn into cheating, because somebody might have to go back and say, `You know what, we need a rule for that, because we hadn't thought about that,''' McKay said.

The issue spills over into non-athletic competition. Musicians take the blood pressure-lowering drug Inderal to calm their nerves before a tryout or performance, according to composer Stuart Dunkel. College students take the attention- deficit drugs Adderall and Ritalin to help them focus for exams, said Dr. Joji Suzuki of Boston University Medical Center.

`Spirit of Sport'

``Stock deals where people have inside knowledge are illegal, but in sports, having inside knowledge that the other team likes to run the fast break is fine,'' said National Collegiate Athletic Association President Myles Brand. ``The rules that apply to sports aren't necessary applied to other enterprises and conversely. But everyone knows the rules of their own game.''

The Oxford ethicist Savulescu dismisses the idea that athletes are competing on natural ability and that performance- enhancing substances violate the ethic of sport. He argues it seems arbitrary that marathoners are allowed to live in a low- oxygen chamber to increase stamina and Tour de France riders can prepare for races using intravenous nutrition and hydration.

``There is this harking for a spirit of sport I think is long gone,'' he said.

I have won APF Senior nationals, AWPC worlds, and currently hold the drug free and untested world record for the bench in the AWPC and the WPC at 100 kilos. I have been tested at every drug free APF/WPC (AAPF/AWPC) meet that I have done, and I can legitimately say that I am drug free. Some of us just prefere competing at a higher level rather than hiding out in shitty federations that make you feel good about your sub-par strength. I think that drug free meets are great for the sport, but I also know that there are plenty of good lifters out there who compete drug free in the untested federations. Also, if an organization who claims to be drug free is not atleast teasting the winners/bestlifter in their meets, they should stop claiming to be drug free.

JC Carter wrote:
ya, cos the people in the tested single ply do not have any guts

Well, there is always someone to take what you said and think it is some kind of personal attack.

I didn't say single-ply lifters have no guts, I will probably be lifting in a single-ply fed soon when I move back to New Mexico.

What I said was if someone has the guts to do it, let them give it a try.

I believe steroids should be legal for anybody to use with there doctor.I believe we should keep working on better bench shirts,better squat suits,better injury recovery methods,etc. I believe that human evalution will get better and better. Man will get bigger and stronger,body and mind and all of these things we are using now are just stepping stones!!!

Matt Minuth wrote:
I have won APF Senior nationals, AWPC worlds, and currently hold the drug free and untested world record for the bench in the AWPC and the WPC at 100 kilos. I have been tested at every drug free APF/WPC (AAPF/AWPC) meet that I have done, and I can legitimately say that I am drug free. Some of us just prefere competing at a higher level rather than hiding out in shitty federations that make you feel good about your sub-par strength. I think that drug free meets are great for the sport, but I also know that there are plenty of good lifters out there who compete drug free in the untested federations. Also, if an organization who claims to be drug free is not atleast teasting the winners/bestlifter in their meets, they should stop claiming to be drug free.

I can't wait for you to kick my ass at Worlds... Thanks for the props brad, here's to hoping I put it together enough to give Matt some competition, although it looks like he won't need me to do that by the looks of the roster.

Matt Minuth wrote:
Some of us just prefere competing at a higher level rather than hiding out in shitty federations that make you feel good about your sub-par strength.

Hey, big boy, I happen to be damned proud of my shitty federation(s) and subpar strength!

You're an outstanding lifter, Matt. Best of luck at the Worlds.

I can assure you not every lifter in a non tested meet is using.

Here in Montana the majority of us guys and girls don't care,We are just lucky to get anybody to come and put a meet on.That's why the non-sanctioned mom and pop meets are always the biggest(the ones you guys never hear or care about).One of my fellow powerlifters competes wabdl as well as apf,now I asked him once when we both competed why he did'nt do the aapf division because the records seem easier to get.He said because the competition was better in the apf.He made me a better competitor with his wisdom.I was planning on competing submasters, but another fellow lifter said "no way, your to strong for the subs.Remember we are in Montana,Thanks for the compliment "kevin".2ndly The supplement companies come out with more stuff every week that is legal,They make a million bottles and sell it before the fda bans it. I personally know two people that took 17hd ( a test booster)that both were tested one failed one past, The older guy past, the younger guys testosterone numbers were significantly higher and he failed the testosterone ratio.I called the company and they said it's not banned and would'nt cause a failed test, but it did, So now he's branded a steroid user when he's never taken steroids.So where do you think he will compete at? Society is
fucked up, I personally don't care. Arnold said 10%, so a 400 bencher would relistically be benching 440, strong either way.Society thinks that you take something banned and then you automatically turn into the incredible hulk.They take away all the long hours and sweat that a guy has put in.Hey Frank Cam are you going to be at the WABDLS in November? I'd sure like to pick your brain.. Charlie Farmer

JimRay wrote:
Derek Willis wrote:
Here is the deal. Most of the people that lift in non-tested federations are on drugs. That is a fact. The reason the don't compete in the tested feds is that they can't afford the masking agents needed to pass the drug test, like Kennelly had the one time in history that he was tested. However I do know of some people that lift in the non-tested federations because they are the only ones that are close to home. But more often than not they are on steroids.

say WHAT?!

It's thoughtful of you to want to give us, "the deal" and a, "fact" but you're high. Lots of people just want to wear the extra gear; some are against drug testing on principle; some don't like the rules or the feds themselves that test.

If they want the gear, do WNPF or WNPFLT. they hold a lot of meets in many places. They have raw, single, and unlimited. They do parallel squats and a long pause, but other than that they go by most muti ply fed rules. Not that it matters, gear is on it's way out. Raw is starting to take over. All of the big players are starting to praise raw.

The drugs made Kennelly's blood pressure so high that he will probably die in the next 10 years, as will Chirs Taylor. The steroids are strong, not him.

JimRay wrote:
Derek Willis wrote:
Here is the deal. Most of the people that lift in non-tested federations are on drugs. That is a fact. The reason the don't compete in the tested feds is that they can't afford the masking agents needed to pass the drug test, like Kennelly had the one time in history that he was tested. However I do know of some people that lift in the non-tested federations because they are the only ones that are close to home. But more often than not they are on steroids.

say WHAT?!

It's thoughtful of you to want to give us, "the deal" and a, "fact" but you're high. Lots of people just want to wear the extra gear; some are against drug testing on principle; some don't like the rules or the feds themselves that test.

If they want the gear, do WNPF or WNPFLT. they hold a lot of meets in many places. They have raw, single, and unlimited. They do parallel squats and a long pause, but other than that they go by most muti ply fed rules. Not that it matters, gear is on it's way out. Raw is starting to take over. All of the big players are starting to praise raw.

The drugs made Kennelly's blood pressure so high that he will probably die in the next 10 years, as will Chirs Taylor. The steroids are strong, not him.

Hey Willis, always remember to

pass to the left

Yes I know lots of lifters who lift usapl aau what ever and use right up to 2-3 weeks out and pass every time so all these nay sayers open your eyes