Can Popular Opinion Influence Calling Depth From The Front?

Putt,
I have to agree with you. A lot of the time, the head ref can not see the depth when it is close. I have been the lifter and have gotten two white ligths from the sides and a red from the front and I think what the hell is this. Maybe someone doesn't like me? Imagine that? At one meet, I was head chair and I'm giving white lights for most of the lifts and the sides are red lighting. During a break, I ask the other refs what was I missing and was told the depth was so close you would not be able to tell from the front. All of that said, I do believe you can tell depth from the front at times. But always remember in doubt, the lifter gets the benefit.

Regina

Regina

What fed(s) do you judge for? I'm joining!

No excuses! Just lift it!

Putt, I agree with Mike's stand on it 100%. If I'm in the head chair I won't red light on depth if the lifter makes a complete attempt at hitting depth. In other words, once the hip crease drops out of sight from the front I'm not going to 'guess' how low it got. I let the side judges handle that. I concentrate on making timely and clear commands and communicating with the spotters if I see something dangerous developing. I'll only call other infractions that are clear to call from the front. Only if a squat is obviously high (bailed out on making depth and I can still see the hip crease above the knee from the front) will I hit the red switch for depth.

Well that is why we have 3 judges, If you squat low enough, given the laws of probability, your lifts will get passed.

USAPL/IPF

Regina

All three judges have a advantage point that allow them to give a "educated opinion". There are prime points amd minor points to each seat. I judge per my advantage point. Usually if I give a red light from the front for being high it is high to me, if the lifter squats down to the point I can not make a clear judgement, I focus on the rest of my list and the lifter gets the benefit of doubt. If you can't do this than get out of the chair!

dont! she trying to suck you into her web. :)

I know. They're all alike...but I do like her attitude. Thanks, Regina.

Hey, I think I like you. not many people like my attitude. :>)

Actually, the USAPL/IPF judging is not as bad as some people like to make it out to be. They are use to lifting in other feds that do not pay as close attention to the rule book as we do. True we do make some bad calls and we miss some things. The same goes for our jury system. And we do usually know later that a bad call was made. But we are not perfect, just everyday people just like you.

Regina

I don't call depth from the front. It is not my job. I am looking for other infractions and giving commands.

Additionally I don't know of a federation that doesn't say the benefit of the doubt goes to the lifter. I've judged USAPL and APF meets and that is how we call it.

Stay Strong, J.R. Bolger, APF Executive Committee, WPC Referee, AZ APF State Chairman, APF Elite Lifter

very simple...every judge has the same resposibility to call infractions from their position whether front or side. If the front judge can make a depth call, he should make it, period. I totally disagree with my peers who judge from the front and actually sit off center so they can judge depth more clearly. If you want to ref from the side sit on the side, otherwise get in front of the lifter and make your call accordingly. kw

The head judge needs to make a best efforts call of depth. As even Putt pointed out, what if the spotters block the view of one of the side judges? Should that make the lift good unless it is a mile high?

That being said, if the head judge red-lights for depth while both side judges give white lights, the head judge needs to treat that as having made a mistake, and adjust his calling of depth so that isn't repeated. Point being that it shouldn't be treated as "oh well, I saw it differently than they did". I wouldn't say the same thing about a side judge giving a lone red light; that is more forgiveable as having saw it differently.

A squat can be high on one side and not the other.
So depth might not be reached on both sides and nobody needs to be forgiven for anything...

People squat unevenly from time to time

Just like in baseball calling balls and strikes. You gotta call 'em like you see 'em.

It's not the head judges responsibility to judge depth. That's why there are 2 side judges. Besides, can he/she really get a clear view of the depth? Just another excuse for the head judge to red light you but white light his homey. Too many politics involved. If you're running with the right crowd (who ever is holding the meet) you'll get the white lights all night but if you're not.... RED LIGHT SPECIAL all night!

I don't call depth from the front. It is not my job. I am looking for other infractions and giving commands.

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if you are a judge, it is your job. Perhaps this is part of the problem with the APF allowing high squats

Or do you think its better to make up rules to suit yourself?

this is horseshit...It may be a little harder to judge depth fro m the front, but blatant high will always be blatant high. If its so close he isnt sure, close, the head judge throws a white, and see if the sides agree. If he was wrong, the sides will catch.

Man, what can we debate next. I say rain is not actually wet. Whos with me ?

it is absolutely possible to judge depth from the front...just a bit harder. the problem i believe is that judges are looking too often for whats wrong instead of whats right. and eventually they are gonna see whats wrong if they focus on it. if you are looking for a high squat, and its close, then you will see a high squat. judges are also forgetting that benefit goes to the lifter, and if you didnt see it, its a white light

Wouldn't that depend on whether the fed's rules use top of the knee, as opposed the center. I would think it would be too difficult in the latter case.

Two of the raw organizations I often lift with do, but in their defense, they are up front about it. That is, during the rules meeting, we are told if there is any doubt whatsoever, we will be redlighted.

Guess I don't really have a right to bitch though. It's not like I don't have a choice whether or not to lift with them.

Sir. You should have your judges card revoked!!!!

Just finished reading the WPC rule, and no where does it say that the head ref does not call depth!!!!
A side spotter could block out a side judge (accidentally) of course, and YOU just gave away a 3 inch high squat!!!!!

I do agree with, if it's to close to call, leave it up to the sides, but not totally disregard depth from the front!!!!

I believe you can call depth from the front.

People get gypped by the side judge as well as the front judge. Unless Hellen Keller or Ray Charles is sitting in the head judges seat (I'm going to hell, I know), I'm not going to question him/her.

That's my stand, I know I'm going against the grain here, but I'll put my name by that.

~Dave Webb, USAPL/APF member

happened to me before.2 whites on the side and a red in the front. Did't care though. Good lift.

I believe you can too, just not all of the time.

Regina

Putt, you know what the rule books say as well as the next.
The rule books say ALL JUDGES ARE TO JUDGE ALL ASPECTS. If you cant do this just stay out of the chair, go be a loader.

Just go do it right and get respect fot it. Grow some balls or stay out of the chair.

If you're going to attack people by name -- and you don't list yours -- don't you think it's just a wee bit hypocritical to telling Buddy he has no balls?

Actually, since everyone who responds puts him/herself out their for nasty comebacks and character assassination, it takes balls to even post an opinion on a controversial issue here.

I think its much harder to judge depth from the front on a bigger man.If one has a rotund midsection its harder to call depth from the front.Take Anthony Clark and Hideaki Inaba for an example.I believe a judge can see Inaba's depth from the front but Clarks would be much harder to tell imho IF it was at least parallel.High squats can be judges from front no problemo!

lol@ grow some balls, when you post anonymously.

If you judge depth from the front on a not so obvious squat..... you're part of the problem and not part of the solution. STOP JUDGING! It's 100% impossible to call if the lifter is right at parallel. If you throw a red and the side judge with a clear view throws a white... SHAME ON YOU! YOU WERE WRONG! Plain and simple, and that's my whole point in bringing up the awareness. Don't even LOOK at depth from the front unless it's so sky high you have to call it.

Technically speaking, if you read the rule book exactly as written, you CAN"T CALL DEPTH FROM THE FRONT! Here's why... One of the two points (the hip crease) will sink back and out of your eyesight while in the whole from a front point of view. Now if you can't see EXACTLY where that point is, how in the hell can you call depth????? If you do, you are estimating where you think it ended up. The side judge can see it the whole way through and therefore should be the ONLY people calling depth. Period.

Like in the NFL replays.... if they can't see the ball hit the ground because a body part, a jersey, a player (whatever) is in the way then you can't rule the ball hit the ground. That would be making shit up. It's called conclusive evidence.

Grow some brains or stay out of the chair... lol

If the two side judges give it white and the front judge gives it a red on depth, THE LIFT STILL PASSES.