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How Long Drug Free?

Billy Mimnaugh wonders if a three year wait is enough for former steroid users who want to compete in a drug free/tested federation.

The USAPL has a three years off policy before you can compete there.However,I think if you were ever on steroids,you ALWAYS have an advantage over a lifetime drug free lifter.Do you guys think a three or five year ban is long enough,or do you think once your on,you always should be considered a juicer.

Replies:

I think as long as you can pass the test you are fine. A 3 year wait is crazy, there is no way that you can prove a lifter has been clean for 3 years. As far as a advantage that depends on the lifter, if he started using as a beginner then he will be at a disadvantage after he stops using. If a lifter has built a lot of strength and has made a lot of gains over years of training, before he started taking roids, then has made a lot more gains with drugs then he will have a advantage when he comes clean, because he has expereance both ways. No I am not on here promoting drug use, but drug testing has enough controversy, the 3 year wait just gives it more problems.

As one who now knows the difference I think 12 months off is fine. Anyting more is paranoia.

Most of those I know who were "long term" users end up with a lower than normal hormone count down the road. I would think they would be at a disadvantage because of the lower hormone count. Not that this happens to everybody but I did run into that situation several times when I worked for a VA hospital and people suffering from diminished hormone counts admitted to having used in the past.

Just something different to consider. My thought is 3 years would be enough. At most when somebody is legitimately off for 3 years the most they will have is a normal level.

I think 3 years is sufficient; even the WADA-prescribed 2 years is probably fine.

The issue is that you can't test for "3 years drug-free" (at least not that I'm aware of). While the benefits are probably pretty tiny after three years, IMO there would be significant benefits for the lifter that had only stopped a couple months earlier, but could pass a test.

I can see your point about someone who uses will have an advantage, but what about someone who experiments and tries roids for say 3-4 months and decides it's just not something he wants to get into. Do you think that person will always benefit from being on for the short time they were?

Mimnaugh:

I dont know about that,but I know this.I once stayed off for a year and a half and didnt train at all.I ate nothing but frozen pizza and chocolate chip cookies and whole milk[this was after a bodybuilding show in the 80s]for the entire year and half and my bodyweight never went under 235 and I always looked like I lifted.When I came back,it took me 2 months to get back to exactly where Id been when I left.I think once you take stuff,your different for the rest of your life,and I know if you take growth hormone,much of those gains are forevor.I think the juiced lifter,even if he comes off for 3 years,is ALWAYS at an advantage.

I agree. Especially when talking about athletes that have used for a longer time or have used GH/IGF/MGF etc etc. The changes that occur to the muscle fibers(like growing new ones, increased expression of AR's on the newly formed fibers etc) are going to give a lifter advantages for many many years to come.

And low test levels post usage, especially after a couple of years can be elevated by natural means (provided the male is not too old, follows good nutrition and lifestyle practices etc) to a point where there should be no detrimental impact on performance. Now while a former user is not going to feel the way they did when there were jacked, even normal test levels is going to have the potential to be even more effective then the lifter who has never used before.

My point, not clearly articulated since the coffee (drugs!) has not kicked in yet is that a past user is going to have an advantage IMO.

I think that while ON, a person can build bigger more quality muscle and if they were to stop the juice and continued to tain hard, they won't loose much. So, I agree that they would have some advantage even after 3years. If they were to stop training, the muscle will shrink. Use it or loose it.

3 years is fine. I think if I lose to someone who's been off for 3 years I have bigger issues then the small benefit they still retain from their AS usage. Time to ditch the excuses.

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So say someone was injured in a car accident and was given medically prescribed steroids to help regain their health. Say a year and half down the road this person has been back in the gym and would like to compete again. Maybe they were prescribed the drugs for the first few weeks after their surgery and have since finished their rehab and have gotten back to training naturally ever since. They'd like to compete again and the drugs for over a year have been completely out of their system. Realistically there is no unfair "residual" advantage for him so nobody should have any problem or hold it against him.

Granted that scenario doesn't happen very often. As far as banning someone as punishment who has knowingly cheated, that's up to each federation and it's understandable. Some ban for 3 years, 5 years, some ban for life.

Jimi Aikey

Jimi Aikey they should be banned for life. the amount of gains you can make on steroids in a short period of time make it unfair to the non drugged lifters that have had to fight harder for their gains in strength and muscle.

I think it sound the drug free associations make a stand on this,it eliminates any arguement over possible advantage.However if a person tests positive in or out of comp ban for life.

This whole topic is silly since a steroid test is extremeley easy to beat and it is done on a regular basis in most sports..including PL..you will never know for sure if someone is drug free especially with a urine test...it's silly and stupid to think you will caught most of the users..the Olympics don't nor do pro sports..If you get caught it is because you made a mistake..it so F'ing easy to get away with drug free Feds are fooling themselves.

ok... let's say some one does fail a drug test, and knows they have a 3 year ban coming. Well, as long as they don't extend their membership, they can't be OMTed. So, during this 3 year ban, the lifter can be tanked to the gills for 1.5- 2 of those years. After that, he PCTs correctly (this should allow him to easily keep 75-90% of his gains), and spends 6-11 months training drug free, and then, upon being cleared to return to drug free competition, lifts more than ever.

Was that 3 year ban useful? Nope, it just made the situation worse.

Now what if you only banned him for a year, during which, you could still possibly OMT for the majority of that time. Heck, even schedule regular testing. Though it could still be beaten, the ability to be tanked to the gills for an extended period of time is reduced.

Sometimes it makes me wonder why they even have drug free sports???

Cheat, get caught, get BANNED. Should be PERMANENT. All the lift's records and title should also go. If they set records or won titles w/o juice, then it is part of the punishment. We've seen some lifters get away with cheating for years before being caught. The only reason to allow them back is Greed - the org wanting the money.

the problem is caughting them...most will never be caught..so you have a test fed..not a drug free fed..not even close!

if you drug in a tested federation, you're a juicer for life in my opinion and should not be allowed to claim 'drug free' ever again.

if you get busted anywhere conclusively, that should be it. for life. but then you probably were cheating all over the place and someone got lucky and caught you just ONE TIME...

there's no way to specifically determine if some roider turkey has been off his roids 2 years 5 mos or 3 years 1 day. could be some jerk who takes a break between defrauding federations that test, goes out, roids some more, goes off, and voila, new fed. why would signing a statement that they haven't done steroids etc for 36 mos stop them, they're busy lying to the world anyway when they lift in tested feds!

bottom line is if you did, you are 1. hard line, yup.

after all, if you murder somebody, even 20 years ago, you still are a MURDERER. time does not change that fact, that you did break a rule.

Roiders who did steroids 20 years ago should not be allowed to present themselves as DRUG FREE. no way.

Once you cross that line, you can't go back. So choose carefully the first time...

The sole exception would be the strict medical usage for a specific ailment, with the TUE and the appropriate sit out period. Once. I don't think people have an annual car accident that requires massive steroid rehab...

Anonymous wrote:
ok... let's say some one does fail a drug test, and knows they have a 3 year ban coming. Well, as long as they don't extend their membership, they can't be OMTed.
This is not accurate. If a member with an expired card or a suspended member refuses to take a DT then it is considered a second failure and the lifter is suspended for life.

Anonymous wrote:
...after all, if you murder somebody, even 20 years ago, you still are a MURDERER. time does not change that fact, that you did break a rule.
Big talk from a man who won't sign his name to a post.

"If a member with an expired card or a suspended member refuses to take a DT then it is considered a second failure and the lifter is suspended for life."

What fed? Let me get this straight, I let my membership lapse...in effect terminating my membership with the organization, and I am *still* subject to OMT? That sounds like BS....by that I mean it sounds like something along the lines of a legally unenforceable contract provision.

In the case of a suspended membership with an agreed-to testing schedule, that is one thing...but to make a blanket claim that "members with expired cards" are subject to the membership restrictions is akin to saying that upon signing up, one becomes a member for life, the dues are just a formality.

"...after all, if you murder somebody, even 20 years ago, you still are a MURDERER."

Some folks take the drug issue way too seriously...competing gassed in a tested fed makes one a CHEATER, nothing more nothing less.

Competing gassed in a non-tested fed makes one a gassed competitor, nothing more nothing less.

The fact that using murder as an analogy for an anti-steroid argument makes one's perspective a little suspect. The next line from the post bears that out:

"Roiders who did steroids 20 years ago should not be allowed to present themselves as DRUG FREE. no way."

Nah, they shouldn't be allowed to present themselves as LIFETIME drug-free for sure, but if they haven't be on on years (3-6), why couldn't they be just regular drug-free? Just because (like everyone else) you can't verify this with absolute certainty??? Granted, previous demonstrate cheaters should be viewed with skepticism, but what about folks who openly admit that they were on in the past, and who simply aren't anymore?

No, competing while using in a tested federation makes you a LIAR UNDER OATH. Your WORD IS NO LONGER GOOD.

it's much more than just oh sure, you "cheated".

You sign a statement saying that you didn't do something you should not do, to compete in that tested federation. Then there's also that small matter of US law, if you are an American.

I maintain my opinion, that once you have chosen to do steroids, YOU CANNOT TAKE IT BACK. Whether a month ago or 20 years ago, you decided. If you lift in an untested federation, that's where you belong. Stay there.

But if you're a lying jerk whose word is no longer GOOD, to God or anybody else, then continue to compete in tested federations while you have chosen to do STEROIDS.

A person who murdered someone 20 years ago still is a MURDERER.

A person who signed a statement saying they didn't use steroids and did, is STILL A LIAR. This doesn't change, 1 day or 20 years.

it's a matter of principle. You choose once to do steroids, stay with those who use. Don't pretend you can take it back, any more than a woman can her virginity.

the hashing about 2 years, 3 years or whatever is worthless. the tested feds should stop coddling such PERSONS.

Why have tested feds..they are really usless the way they are done...since you know when you will be tested..you have the ability to beat the test. therefore you never really know who is using and who is not...there are no doubt many steroid users in tested feds and most will never get caught...it's not a drug free fed, just a drug tested fed..just like the olympics and pro sports...and just like those the users will 99% of the time get away with it...so let's face it...top lifters in tested feds are still using so it's still not fair for those who choose not to use.

If you choose not to use you are at a disadvantage no matter what fed you compete in..your only really chose is to lift with a disadvantage or fool yourself that the guys beating you are just stronger and not using...lol either way it never going to be fair.

"No, competing while using in a tested federation makes you a LIAR UNDER OATH. Your WORD IS NO LONGER GOOD...it's much more than just oh sure, you "cheated".

Somebody had the jelly taken out of their doughnut this morning... :)

Last time I checked, being a cheater is part and parcel of one's word not being any good. No need for the histrionics and drama. :)

As far as "lying under oath" goes...next time I see a lifter fill out their membership application hot off the PC printer in a Courtroom or Notary public, then I'll think "oath".

"You sign a statement saying that you didn't do something you should not do, to compete in that tested federation. "

Talking about cheaters who pop positive yes. Talking about folks who used in the past...most Fed entry forms specify 3 to 6 years drug free...so if you're the one going to be technical about it, maybe your gripe should be with the Fed not with the lifter in that case. You're entitled to your opinion that folks who have ever used AAS shouldn't be allowed to compete in tested feds, ever. That being said, its obvious that the Feds, collectively, do not share your opinion.

"Then there's also that small matter of US law, if you are an American."

AAS are only illegal in the US without a prescription. Anyone motivated enough can obtain them legally.

We can all agree that cheaters are weasels, sure...most of your vitriol seems directed at those who use while competeing in tested feds, cheating.

but back to the thread...what about folks who haven't cheated, only used while in non-tested feds, but maybe changed their minds and want to wait out the time and compete in a tested fed?

"If you lift in an untested federation, that's where you belong. Stay there."

I see. You are surely entitled to your opinion. Hopefully your zeal doesn't spill out on those who lift in untested feds but don't use.

Personally, I'm inclined to defer to Mimnaugh's opinion that 3-6 years isn't enough to "level the playing field"...that the gains made can be carried over...but I'm certainly not willing to be as dogmatic about it as you are.

You have got to be shitting me.Reading this tells me how stupid most people are and how uneducated people are.I am 40 years old I started lifting in high school.When I started my body weight was 150lbs height 5'11" I remember clearly that trying to bench the 45lb olympic bar and two tens was kicking my ass!!! three years later my senior year same height but body weight at 185lbs I am now benching 325lbs.My arms measured 18 inches.My point genentics.I busted my ass to get to that point in high school.Years later now at the age 28 my boss at the time was into body building and had 16.5 inch arms they looked huge. AT this pointI told my boss that I had 18 inch arms and a 325lb bench at 18 rears old.He told me bullshit not without steroids,this sounded like my gym teacher my senior year.At this point ready to re kick some ass with the weights.Me my boss and a friend that worked with me set some goals.My goals was to have 19 inch guns and my 300 plus bench back with in a year.My body weight at this time 150lbs arms 15.5 inches.In a six month span my body weight went to 205lbs and arms 19.5 inches and got my bench back to 325lbs in less than a year.My boss still insisted I was on steroids.The truth no I was not on steroids.Anybody can build his or her strength and size over a period of time and have a lay off.Even for a few years and come back in a short period of time and regain what they had lost and it is not because of using steroids.A proven fact muscle is muscle and it has memory so if you once had a 20inch arm that took you 4 years to build and you had a lay off for three years if you start training and eating and resting properly you will have that 20inch arm back in no time it has been there before it is just muscle and once again proven fact muscle has memory its a fact research it.So before you're mouth starts to override youre ass do some research.No you don't just stick a needle in youre ass and poof bench 700lbs or grow a 20inch arm alot of it is genetics to begin with.My stats now and still hear the same bullshit from uneducated assholes!!!! that you can't bench over 600 without using.Wrong I am 5'11" weigh 275 I have 21.5 inch arms and have a raw bench of 500 a single ply shirted bench of 635 and a double ply shirted bench of 700.I have witnessed friends that I went to school with that used in college for football for a few years and had a very good build.Years later restart lifting and has a better build and better strength without roids.So the fact genetics, you have it or dont.And the needle is not going to put you over the top if you dont have the genetics to begin with and the guy that did use and can bench 600 would have gotten there in a matter of time without the use of steroids because of his genetics to begin with.And anybody that has some knowledge about steroids would agree.

tim cowgar wrote:
You have got to be shitting me.Reading this tells me how stupid most people are and how uneducated people are.I am 40 years old I started lifting in high school.When I started my body weight was 150lbs height 5'11" I remember clearly that trying to bench the 45lb olympic bar and two tens was kicking my ass!!! three years later my senior year same height but body weight at 185lbs I am now benching 325lbs.My arms measured 18 inches.My point genentics.I busted my ass to get to that point in high school.Years later now at the age 28 my boss at the time was into body building and had 16.5 inch arms they looked huge. AT this pointI told my boss that I had 18 inch arms and a 325lb bench at 18 rears old.He told me bullshit not without steroids,this sounded like my gym teacher my senior year.At this point ready to re kick some ass with the weights.Me my boss and a friend that worked with me set some goals.My goals was to have 19 inch guns and my 300 plus bench back with in a year.My body weight at this time 150lbs arms 15.5 inches.In a six month span my body weight went to 205lbs and arms 19.5 inches and got my bench back to 325lbs in less than a year.My boss still insisted I was on steroids.The truth no I was not on steroids.Anybody can build his or her strength and size over a period of time and have a lay off.Even for a few years and come back in a short period of time and regain what they had lost and it is not because of using steroids.A proven fact muscle is muscle and it has memory so if you once had a 20inch arm that took you 4 years to build and you had a lay off for three years if you start training and eating and resting properly you will have that 20inch arm back in no time it has been there before it is just muscle and once again proven fact muscle has memory its a fact research it.So before you're mouth starts to override youre ass do some research.No you don't just stick a needle in youre ass and poof bench 700lbs or grow a 20inch arm alot of it is genetics to begin with.My stats now and still hear the same bullshit from uneducated assholes!!!! that you can't bench over 600 without using.Wrong I am 5'11" weigh 275 I have 21.5 inch arms and have a raw bench of 500 a single ply shirted bench of 635 and a double ply shirted bench of 700.I have witnessed friends that I went to school with that used in college for football for a few years and had a very good build.Years later restart lifting and has a better build and better strength without roids.So the fact genetics, you have it or dont.And the needle is not going to put you over the top if you dont have the genetics to begin with and the guy that did use and can bench 600 would have gotten there in a matter of time without the use of steroids because of his genetics to begin with.And anybody that has some knowledge about steroids would agree.

Is your spacebar broken Tim? I can't even read that, its too much of a jumble. Normal people put spaces between sentences.

what is he talking about..did i miss something, i didnt see where someone was saying that you have to juice to be hitting big lifts or did i miss that??? angry guy.