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I don't believe that lifts done in knee wraps should be compared to those that are done without knee wraps. One clearly adds an advantage over the other. However, I certainly don't want to diminish the accomplishments of those that choose to use knee wraps.
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My opinion is knee wraps give you a sense of security, around the knee cap, and tendons and ligaments, if you squat 300 lbs for 5 reps with no wraps, but you can do conditioning work with 300 lbs, for 10 reps x 2 sets, it will help to establish a good foundation, a little sooner, i've been squating for 33 years, with wraps, only on work sets, and it has allowed me to stay injury free! Jose perez-- 765 squat 1990's, single ply, and 688 squat at 148 single ply 1990's
two different things... anything that helps add to ur lift should be considered different
What about a belt?
Where does it end. I guess if we look hard enough we will find something we can do, that others can't
Lets make the rules the same in all contests, then equipment won't be a big issue
Knee wraps are RAW.
We have a precedent of using knee wraps from DAY ONE in this Sport. 1964.
Why deviate from what our founding legends did back at the origins of our sport?
How many of these people that say raw is without a belt, actually compete? I mean really. It's not like you see many going out there without a belt for squat and deadlift. It's always the guys doing "ass to the grass" with 2 plates. haha!
First wearing knee wraps and a belt is raw. I mean what amount of weight do you think wraps can give 50-75 LBS at best lets not say they give more. I do respect all of the guys who choose not to wear wraps as well as the guys who do. As well as the single ply and multi ply guys and girls who choose to lift where they want. As for me I am going to be lifting raw in the future and that means wearing wraps if the fed allows them as well as if it does not just my choice. However back when I dumped the 1052 (APF Seniors 2003).My training without the wraps as well as with them I believe help me out with my injury not being as severe.
First off I agree that knee wraps and belt is raw. I have lifted some in the 90s in AAU meets here in the midwest with no knee wraps and to me it is not real safe. I am 45 now and would not lift in a raw meet if you could not wrap the knee. Like someone said above knee wraps were there from day one. This is not Olympic lifting. I am getting ready to lift in a raw meet for the APA and they let you use wraps. If not why not just put on single ply gear. I am not sure why this is even in question because all of the raw rankings are done where you can use wraps. Maybe the feds that do not want to use wraps should take another look at it and let the use wraps. Just my opinion. Ken Ufford
Also before you go and have rankings for raw with wraps and raw with no wraps how about a teen and master rankings. Ken Ufford
Ditto again! I'd venture to say that most of the "No knee wraps in raw" voters are not competitors, or have not been lifting long enough to have built their squats past 3-400 lbs. or so.
they are both raw...like eric states it's simply one with wraps and one without...
now the question is should wraps be the standard of raw? that I cannot answer...but in my opinion are both 2 different standards
I like the wraps for safety of my knees and less pain when training. They should be considered raw.
This is just my opinion but knee wraps and wrist wraps are essentially the same thing right? just used on different parts of the body to support different bones and ligaments under heavier weight then what your body is accustomed to stabilizing on its own right? so if feds out there make you enter their meet as equipped if you wear knee wraps why do they let you enter raw if you are a bench specialist but use wrist wraps? If you have a squat/DL suit on or bench shirt then you are equipped. Knee wraps are still raw
I know some people that get 40 kilograms from their wraps, not really raw is it?:D
Using knee wraps or belts,is not lifting RAW.Any type of equipment that helps a lifter,lift more weight,is not RAW!
ote=Jacob S. Gunter]Knee wraps are RAW.
With respect, knee wraps are no way at all raw. I squated 495 the other day with just a belt and grinded it to get it, and then threw on knee wraps and got 540 with another 10-15 lbs. in the tank. That's a 45 lb. jump. Pretty soon you will have people saying that this new sling shot should be raw because they have bad shoulders and it just a support and for safety....If you want to call it for safety reasons or because you have an injury, they should have it where you can only use 24-30 inch cotton wraps or basic knee sleeves. Also, no way can you call a belt in the same catagory as knee wraps. You don't have to have someone put your belt on like the way these guys are with 2.5 meter wraps where your legs are as stiff as board when you squat.
I agree with most of what was said. I think raw should follow more of what some call "classic" i.e what has been around since the beginning, belt, wrist wraps, knee wraps. Yes of course you lift more with that, but I think (my opinion completely) that the foundational idea of seperating raw and equipped is to eliminate the learning curve associated with equipment. There are different ways to do a knee wrap, mostly based on preference, but there really isnt much technique. Same with belt and wrist wraps. There is correct placement, and thats about as fancy as it gets.
Knee wraps provide no safety mechanism, and thats a fact thats been proven in a few studies, but you sure feel "tighter and safer" with them on, not to mention the extra rebound you get out of the hole. Belt is also mostly a performance booster, by helping maximize the intrathecal pressure from the valsalva maneuver it "protects" your back, but that extra stability also helps you generate more force through your core from your hips into the barbell. If there was one of the three that is purely safety I would say its the wrist wrap, just from keeping longevity in your wrists and elbow for your powerlifting career especially obviously in the bench press.
So overall I think the honest root of seperating raw vs. equipped was to seperate the learning curve. I think all lifters should develop their raw lifting skills fully before (should they choose to) moving into equipment, mainly to maximize the effectiveness of that equipment i.e the guy who benches 225x1 raw and is wearing a 2 ply shirt...you better be in the 165's :-)
so yes to knee wraps, wrist wraps and belt, lets make it a friendly entry point for more people to try out powerlifting and not feel overwhelmed by needing to learn equipment, but at least they get to use some "equipment" to make it fun, for as cheesy as that sounds.
Ken,the issue is RAW lifters complain about squat suits,and benchshirts,but they dont believe they are getting any help out of knee wraps and belts.You have been lifting for 20 plus years.you know knee wraps can give you 75 pds in your squat.
RAW is using nothing but a singlet,or your equipeted. Plain and simple
THE MORE GEAR THE BETTER! GEAR FOR LIFE! THE MORE GEAR THE BETTER! GEAR FOR LIFE! THE MORE GEAR THE BETTER! GEAR FOR LIFE! THE MORE GEAR THE BETTER! GEAR FOR LIFE! THE MORE GEAR THE BETTER! GEAR FOR LIFE! THE MORE GEAR THE BETTER! GEAR FOR LIFE!
Wraps were made and used for safety purposes like belts to protect body parts being used for the lift and not to add poundages. Raw is such an over-used term. One should be able to use wraps and a belt to protect their knees, hernia's, wrists and so on.
The problem with lifting now is squat suits, bench shirts and deadlift suits that add hundreds of pounds and are not used for safety purposes but for excess poundages.
So now we have people saying that they get X amount out of wraps. Wraps/belts vs. suits is a whole different ball game.
I don't like the term "raw" because no one can agree what raw is. In my opinion like stated above with others if you use wraps or a belt it should be "raw" or some other term.
Every week I read this board someone is breaking someone's record or you have some ridiculous numbers by lifters who use a ton of gear to get that number and we all know if they only used wraps and a belt they would not be close to that.
Look at raw benches/squats that use only wraps and a belt and you will see what I am talking about.
So maybe we call "assisted" lifting for suits and shirts. And "non assisted" for wraps only lifting. Let's get rid of "raw" terminology since we can't agree on what raw is. I've never heard of anyone getting hundreds of pounds from wraps or a belt.
Not to take away from ANY lifter but I can't bring myself to consider knee wraps raw. I know guys who get 80-100 lbs out of wraps. I think Eric Talmant had a good point with "raw with wraps" and "raw without wraps", think that'd be a good idea. I don't think you can argue about wraps being used in the beginning of powerlifting because weren't they just ace wraps? This is just my opinion, and to be honest, I don't care what kind of equipment anyone else wears as long as I'm lifting how I want.
Raw should be no wraps of any kind and no belt or any kind of supportive gear whatsoever.
ULTIMATE SIZE, STRENGTH, AND STAMINA
Wraps were made and used for safety purposes like belts to protect body parts being used for the lift and not to add poundages
It doesn't matter what the stated or intended purpose is supposed to be.
They add pounds and lots of them.
Suits add safety to the hips and shirts absolutely add stability and safety to the shoulders, thats why we use gear, but there is no doubt at all that they add plenty of pounds.
How about RAW without gear, and RAW with gear? :)
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Lifting Raw or Equipped is a choice. I lift Raw by choice. Using knee wraps is NOT a choice for me anymore. It is a necessity. Obviously, using belt and wraps is not 100% Raw by definition. However, using minimal protective gear when lifting is common sense. It protects the lifter from injury and prolongs his time in the sport. I will not take a high risk by squatting maximal weight without wraps just to prove a point. It would not be smart.
I believe that most of the "philosophers" who declare wraps should not be considered RAW have not squatted 4 plates+ in training every week for 20 years and are still able to do so without wraps. If anyone does, I envy him.
RAW = no wraps, no belt
something else = belt and wraps
something else = shirts and suits
Raw is cool if you can do it. Wraps and belts are universally accepted as being standard gym equipment, it's what the originals used, and they keep you safer. Suits and shirts are a different animal altogether, but if you've got bad hips and bad shoulders not sure you have the option of raw or belt and wraps. To some degree I've always looked at it as an evolution...early on when you've got no wear and tear and you aren't handling big weights you can go raw...then once you're handling loads where things start to stress joints/backs you add the belt and wraps...then once you get older and you're carrying more previous injury baggage plus you've gotten stronger and can handle more weight you take a dip into suits and shirts and see if you like them.
This may sound retarded but if I trained athletes (like NFL football players) I'd have them train in full gear. They don't need to take any additional damage in the weightroom to their knees, shoulders, hips and backs. Plus, they need to be stronger in that top end of the range of motion of the exercises we do. I think a guy that squats 800 in a suit is going to be alot stronger in sport than a guy who trains raw and never handles anything more than 600. The gear ain't evil and it's certainly doesn't automatically give you tons of extra poundage.
A Squat done with Knee Wraps is not RAW.
The RAW Classification Standards endorsed by the majority of Powerlifting Federations
offering a RAW Divison, do not recognize Knee Wraps being used in competition as RAW.
THE HISTORY of RAW POWERLIFTING:
RAW POWERLIFTING has nothing to do with the OLD DAYS of our Sport. It was created by Al Siegel in the '90s
That's right the President of the ADAU. The idea of RAW was started to make a statement against
all the gear being used at the time. The idea was to lift RAW (NO GEAR)...(Thus no Knee Wraps)
RAW caught on quick and soon Federations like 100% RAW started-up, only offering RAW Lifting.
I wrote the RAW Classification Standards three years ago this month.
This was the first time RAW Lifters were able to compare and evaluate
where they stood based on a unified set of standards.
A belt has always been an option in lifting.
Wear one, don't wear one...not up for debate.
A belt was looked at the same way as wearing
a singlet or lifting shoes.
The problem with our sport is it does not have
a real governing body that can make decisions
that are best for the sport.
I have no idea why some Federations, all of a
sudden woke up to the RAW movement and instead
of going with the flow...meaning using the
definition of RAW and its classification standards
as agreed upon by the 100% RAW, AAU & ADAU.
They decided to add Knee Wraps & call it RAW in their Meets.
Again nothing was broke...RAW, as it was originally defined needed NO HELP!
RAW Lifters needed no help...Lifters were not
getting injured or complaining in the above
mentioned federations. Nothing except...
Oh yeah...ego. You see if you Squat w/knee wraps
you Squat more weight. More is better so lets do it.
YES...if you Squat with Knee Wraps you will Squat MORE Weight!
THE REAL ISSUE & PROBLEM with KNEE WRAPS in RAW:
The current state of Powerlfiting allows lifter's Squats to be ranked
in the RAW Division as well as those lifters increased Totals.
Apples and Oranges in comparison. Bad for our Sport!
Powerlifting has multiple federations. I do not see this changing, nor would I want to debate it.
What we need is multiple divisions. This way we're not comparing apples to oranges!
First. All federations need to redefine their definition of RAW.
To make things right in our sport we need to have 4 divisions.
RAW: is just that no gear, Singlet & a Belt.
Classic: is where we go back to old school PL.
Singlet, wraps, Belt. (No Bench Shirt or Gear)
Equipped: Single Ply...Shirt, wraps & Belt.
Xtreme: Anything goes. Multi Ply, Canvas anything.
RAW needed no help...it was and is doing great!
WE WILL NOT BE INVENTING THE WHEEL:
Auto Racing, had the same problem.
They fixed it to attract more fans & competitors.
They fixed it by clearly defining their divisions.
We can agree to disagree on a whole lot of things.
The need for multiple Divisions is not one of them.
POSITIVE ACTIONS from MULTIPLE DIVISIONS:
Easier for Fans to follow
Easier for Competitors to follow
Easier to declare overall Champions
Easier to create a fair up to date ranking system.
Will lead to more unity in our sport
Will allow Feds to have Div. Championships.
Will lead to Feds sending Div. Champions to
compete in unified World Championships.
Even if the top lifters in Divisions don't get to
compete on the same platform...the current & clear
ranking system that will be established will let
all lifters know where they stand in their Divison.
We can work together and make our sport stronger.
Your Partner in Success,
Founder TEAM iXL
iXL So Can YOU @ TEAMixl.com
And shoes. For God's sake don't forget shoes. Because if you wear shoes, you're not raw.... You can get 25 pounds out of shoes.....MAYBE if you squat in flip flops you can be raw but then again, some guys can get 10 pounds out of flip flops. And that's cheating. If we could get together and come up with a flip flop only squatting division or even a federation so guys who squat in flip flops could get the recognition they deserve and not have to compete against other guys who have shoes. Because God dammit shoes aren't raw.
I have never competed in powerlifting. But i have squated 655x3 in just a belt and knee sleeves in the gym.
so the crap everyone says about anyone who doesnt consider knee wraps being wrong is squating 3-400lbs, is just that, crap.
some people get 100lbs out of knee wraps, that is directly comparable to the kind of weight you could get out of a single ply squat suite.
so no, wraps arent raw.
using knee wraps for saftey, doesnt make squating in them raw.
and whether they were or not they were around from the very begining doesnt make them raw either.
Just call knee wraps unequipped, meaning not using a squat suit, and no knee wraps, raw, simple.
Where are you guys getting these knee wraps that give you 100 lbs? I want some now! Like someone mentioned, at my age, 48, wraps are not an option. They give me support and most importantly protection. I am going to start doing raw meets and I am going to give my money and support to the fed that allows me to use wraps. I think most master lifters agree that wraps are a must. Feds would be smart to do things that attract the older lifters. We travel and spend money. I plan my vacations around meets b/c this is my hobby and passion. For example, I am looking @ going to Branson in July to do a meet there. I had no clue where it was. I looked it up and it sounds like a fun place. They are going to have 3 additional lifters, me, my son, and wife, b/c they allow knee wraps.
USAPL -- Raw = +/- belt, +/- wrist wraps, +/- knee sleeves
ADFPF -- Raw = +/- wrist wraps, +/- belt
APA -- +/- belt, +/- wrist wraps, +/- knee wraps
Each federation has its own rules. Lift wear you want to lift.
age 51, I lift in all three of the above. For me, wraps aren't a must, but they may extend my lifting career a few years (since I've already had both knees scoped).
Give me a break knee wraps are raw!
What passes as a belt in powerlifting is nothing more than a set of artifical abs that people with weak cores can purchase. The belts weigh about five pounds and have gone far beyond the mere purpose of safety.
The same is true of wraps. I've got no problem with wraps, so long as they are nothing more than Marathon Gold Lines. As far as belts and wraps go, the train went off the tracks about the time that Inzer and similar companies entered the picture.
For those interested in getting strong, train without the belt or wraps. If you want to enter a powerlifting contest and have a little fun, go get a basic leather weightlifting belt and some Gold Lines. Train in them a few weeks, instantly up your PR about 60 pounds, and do the meet. It will be a geared lift, but just go along with them when they hand you the trophy for best raw lifter in your class. After all, they don't know any better.
That is all coming.
iXL So Can YOU @ TEAMixl.com
Good post Greg.
I've competed both ways, with and without knee wraps. The only thing I gained from having knee wraps on is knowing I'll get to keep my knee joints longer and that you really can feel your ovaries in your throat if your experienced lifting buddy wraps them for you..
If knee sleeves are allowed (purpose: stabilize the joint!), which some can be tightened or worn just as tight as wraps, wraps should be o.k. too within length specifications. But, to each federation their own... The idea is effective stability to the joint, not adding an advantage to the weight lifted.. IMNSHO, I think wraps are safer for stabilizing the joint than sleeves, but that's just my NSHO...
Knee wraps are more psych than anything..
no wraps = more conservative lifts attempted
wraps = joint is protected, go for the record!
Someone needs to take a stand and define the rules we are going to adhere to in going forward in this sport we call powerlifting.
The way that Greg Stott separates the genres of powerlifting is exactly what I have been discussing and communicating with MANY lifters for over 3 years now.
That stand is coming soon. Raw lifting will be defined. Classic lifting will be defined. Single ply is pretty much already defined; and Multi Ply is defined. Guess who is going to get to do that? You guys are.
Xtrme Power Television is coming and it is going to offer television coverage, big sponsors, and gradually bigger prize monies. The lines have to be drawn so that we can compare apples to apples. Our sport has to move forward; and in order to do so separating the genres of powerlifting is a must.
My team was able to grow the Raw Unity Meet to where it is now the premiere raw event in the United States. We were then able to (with a lot of luck) get Raw Unity televised on Fox Sports. Now we have multiple shows that are going to be taped and aired on Fox Sports. We plan to define the different genres of powerlifting and be here for you guys-the lifters. Our hope is to have raw events televised, classic powerlifting televised, single ply televised, and multi ply televised. Eventually we would like to have the best of the best battle it out in ALL GENRES of powerlifting-competing 4 times a year in big venues with a scoring system with points for placing. At the end of the year, the overall champions will be crowned. It is marketable, the public can relate to it, and the lifters will eventually be able to call themselves true champions.
Please join with us and help to build the momentum.
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Raw Lifting, Knee wraps ,knee sleeves If you want Raw go Raw No equipment! Stop crying because some groups allow knee wraps and some don't! It's easy go lift where you want! What's the Big Deal because some one doesn't like Knee wraps! Just a bunch of kids crying over Hey they get to wear them and we don't! That's just like saying your group as records but our group records are better! Make your Buck and enjoy the SPORT! POWERLIFTING!
We wear wraps in Raw and its going to stay that way, don't care who likes it.
I don't care how "RAW" is defined. I don't care what fed you lift in or how much gear you wear. I just like to know what gear was worn during a lift. I won't acknowledge anyones posted lift online unless it's from a reputable website like Powerlifting Watch.
Example: Joe Blow benches 520, deadlifts 645 and squats 705 @ 220 pounds. Do you care? You shouldn't, because you have no idea what that person had on.
The only legit multiply records I really pay attention to are the national and world records because I don't wear gear, so I have no idea what to expect from someone while wearing it. I just assume the very top lifters in each class must be legitimately strong. I might sound like I don't like gear, but seriously I don't care about that. As long as you enjoy what you are doing, it's all good. I choose not to wear gear because I feel it's complicating and expensive.
Then you should not be in the RAW division. You should be in the equipted division.You can spend your money where you like,your option,but,using knee wraps ,is not lifting RAW!
Sir,thats the way it should be,but dont expect to hold RAW records,when you are using knee wraps.I dont compete in a RAW meet with a benchshirt on,and expect to break RAW records.See the point?
I don't understand why anyone would get upset about what you said Eric. Unless they're a lazy ass meet promoter too lazy to get out there and advance our sport with the general public. Bodybuilding wasn't crap before Joe Weider and look at it now. Do you really think the general public wants to look like a bodybuilders? Hell NO!!!!! But they love to see the freaks and some day with the help of the powerlifting "Joe Weider" they'll watch the powerlifting freaks too. Good luck to you Eric.
Funny enough, one of many reasons I stopped lifting in gear was because I felt that my knees were actually damaged MORE with knee wraps. When I wrapped my knees as tight as I could (since that's what it took to get every possible pound out of them), I could feel my knee joints grinding against themselves from extreme compression. That, combined with increased vertical load on them due to bigger weights that I was handling because of gear, left a bit of a mess inside my knees, judging by what I saw on the screen when one of them was getting scoped. So I'm not exactly sold on the whole "you need wraps to protect your knee joints" line of thinking.
A post was taken down so I can't quote it exactly. It had a tone that Talmant had only promoted 3 meets and now he thinks he is know it all. Just trying to take over the sport. Kind of had an "I dare you tell us how to run our business" feel. That is not exactly how it was said but that is how I took it. I do not know Talmant at all but... The guy has promoted 3 meets and his 3rd one was on TV, maybe he knows what he is doing.
Here in Louisville we have used wraps for ever and always will.
Raw is Belt and wraps and it is here to stay.
Maybe the best way to look at this is look at olympic weightlifting. They can use a belt though many do not and they can use knee sleeves but not wraps. Another thing - Powerlifitng has really never been raw. Suits have been around for ages just not made of the material today's suits are. But they sure did wear them tight back in the day and they used wraps on knees and wrists. I lift single-ply but I say in the interest of the sport allow only a single-ply suit made of the older poly material and eliminate bench shirts all together. Keep the wraps and for pete's sake squat deep.
I have a pair of TP5000 wraps. They definitely help my squat. 335x6 w/o them. 375x7 with them on. I probably don't wrap my knees properly, but they still help. I have to admit they boost my ego. I don't think I could max 400 without them.
I don't think gear protects anyone unless you use it and push your raw numbers. Most people are lying if they tell you they use gear for protection from injuries. Most people just push even heavier weights with it on which increases the chance of injury. At the least it offsets the gain in safety, no more. How many lifters seriously buy gear for safety. It's just an excuse. The same lifter who says they wear gear for safety probably rides a crotch rocket with no helmet.
Safety = Nice Excuse
gear and safety < EGO
If the 100% RAW federation changed the rules saying gear is allowed because they want safety all of there records would be broken in one meet. How does that make gear safer when the reason for wearing it was defeated. Now lifters are using so much weight that if they get off balance a little bit they break bones. Or worse yet they have to use a monolift.
What is raw? Should be an easy answer right? Apparently not, lets examine history a little. The sport started without written rules of what equipment could be used. So what did they use? Everything under the sun thats what! Raw did not start in 1964. This is not to say that all lifters wore wraps and other equipment. The 60's did however, include lifters that used bed sheets, wraps, Cut off denim pants, canvas coaching shorts, cut tennis balls and whatever they could find. Most lifters though, were purists and shunned those who wore all the crap. By Nov 1972 the AAU banned all wraps and bs equipment. All lifts from january 1973- Dec 1973 were without wraps. That was the only time that lifters were truly raw. So you see, wraps have been argued over since we started using them. Decades later, Al Segal of the AAU (at the time) starts holding meets under what HE called raw this was around 1996. So technically he revisited the arguments of 1973 and coined the term raw. So by that fact raw is what big al said it was and no wraps were included. If we want to lift like the guys of old and wear knee wraps then wear ace bandages not Titaniums, THP, RPM, black mambas, strangulators or whatever the super wraps of today are called. Classic powerlifting is with wraps thats how it started. Wraps were banned in 1973 but the term raw began in '96 and it was without wraps.
Ok, now I dont know what all the fuss is about with Eric. Seems to me he's taking powerlifting in the right direction (but he is not alone). Anyway, call it what you want raw this raw that just dont compare a pure raw squat of 600lbs to a classic squat of 600lb wearing strangulators, anacondas, or dragon's breath double radial titanium plated super wrap 2010s!
Heres an idea
how about we do what ever we please. Remember, this is america. This is why we have different federations, don't like it tuff.
Knee Sleeves or Knee wraps provide protection for the knee area. I will not lift in a raw meet without wraps or sleeves.
100% Raw org. allows no protection. The guys that run this org are mostly bench pressers only.
Look at their meets, very few of their lifters enter the full POWERLIFT MEET other than teenagers.Vast majority of there adult members bench press or push/pull.
100% Raw should not set standards powerlifting.
i feel the ADAU is the standard for true RAW powerlifting.... its you against the weight... and thats it. you can say all you want about safty but i dont even use a belt and im fine. maybe some ppl need it or what ever and thats ok too... but dont try to say knee wraps are raw because u "need them"........ i feel powerlifters need to stop being bitches and buck up.... its a great sport and the only ppl holding it back is the powerlifers and ego..... Eric i agree w u... you are not only right on but you are stepping up to the plate and doing something great! i wish more ppl would do that....
Who cares about wraps, anyway? I got those new Escalator socks and added 45 lb to my squat and 35 to my deadlift the first time I wore them.
*is stampeded by raw lifters wanting my socks*
wraps are not raw end of story!
Wraps are Raw and thats the end of the story.
There are federations that will always use them and don't care about TV,Eric or anything and thats the way it should be. Everyone is entitled to their opinon and everyone will always be allowed to do as they please.
i get that feds allow them and call it raw.... but how and why would you truly believe it is?? if you use something that adds a noticable amount of weight to a lift how can you say that is raw?? it isnt... seems alot of ppl are in denial
If your post starts with I don't compete or you haven't competed, you should not even say anything. I think that raw is belt only. I wore wraps last meet, as they were allowed as raw in SPF and if I did not, I would be punished in power rankings. And for the record, I get about 30 pounds out of them. But, to the belt should be considered gear....gay! It is a safety tool. If the belt adds some weight, o well. It is easy to slip your disc. I know, you with the 300 pound squat and deadlift don't wear one. I am sure that with a belt and knee you could hit 700. hahaha
Saying that knee wraps should not be considered raw is crazy to me. To me that is like saying that Gatorade is illegal in tested federations because it is a sports enhancing drink. I see it as a safety precaution. If they are not considered raw, then belts should not be considered raw either. Someone could blow out a knee just as easy as they could slip a disc.
We use wraps in the SPF and not all of us care about the rankings, we care about being able to stay in this sport longer and we also care about being able to do things the way we think they should be done. Last time I checked we are still in America. Big John
nobody is tryin to stop people from using wraps...the problem is when..
a guy squats 600 WITHOUT wraps
a guy squats 610 WITH wraps.....now is considered the stronger guy on the rankings and now the guy WITHOUT wraps record is gone
with wraps is raw
without wraps is raw .....just two different things
why in the hell people cant see that??
should have two different categories
or the way they said it with the classic and all that
oh I see we need more records for people to run to
its always been raw and will stay raw.
The power rankings take the wraps into consideration.
What about mono's? Don't they allow you to get more weight? Is this now considered equipped?
BTW wraps are raw!
I know my post is long...but read it...you might just be surprised that it does
not point fingers and even offers a solution to a real problem in our sport.
The Need to Define a Division Explained:
We are a sport. When you're a sport, the athletes that compete in that sport set records. They don't move the net higher in Basketball because people are dunking so easy. They don't extend the football field when somebody runs a kickoff back 100 yards. In Auto Racing, records are not compared in the Stock & Modified Divisions.
This really is not complicated. Lift with Knee Wraps if you feel it works for you. The issue is not whether to lift with wraps or not to lift with wraps...it's that you can't compare the two Squats and the bump from wraps effects the Total. So in short, because of not defining divisions in our sport, we have taken away a key aspect of sport...which is the ability to set records.
If you want to lift with gear...then you can lift in the Equipped Div. or the Xtreme Div. If you want to wear wraps then you'll be lifting in the Classic Div. & if you want to battle the weight with only using a Belt (Optional) then you will be lifting RAW.
By defining divisions, it will not just help us solve the RAW Debate,
equipped lifters will benefit as well. Most importantly,
it will be good for Powerlifting!
- Greg Stott
Founder TEAM iXL
iXL So Can YOU @ TEAMiXL.com
---What division is knee sleeves? Why?
---What division is wrist wraps? Why?
---What division is mono? Why?
---What division is single ply with briefs? Why?
---What division is single ply with mono? Why?
---Why stop at 4 division?
I guess you haven't seen KK's 939 raw DL without a belt. No one needs a belt, once you get used to it you can lift the same weight. Actually the belt teaches abs the opposite way to support the body. Instead of flexing in they push out against the belt. It sure didn't help my back when I first hurt it and now I have to watch my back like a hawk not to re-injure it.
I guess you haven't seen that he also wears a belt alot in comp when squatting. I go without a belt with heavy weight, but just get over the belt issue. We know what strong is. If you actually look at someone that squats a huge number with a belt, do you actually say, wonder what he could do without a belt. The knee wrap is one thing but this is out of hand.
Sex without a condom is raw, sex with, isn't !
I don't think that knee wraps vs. no knee wraps is resolvable, so probably calling knee wraps "classic" and no knee wraps "raw" will at least keep comparisons apples to apples. I also don't think that any one fed should offer both, because I doubt there would be sufficient demand for both. But a fed that defined raw as using knee wraps would be more universally called classic, and without would be called raw.
Those that want knee wraps for raw keep pointing back to belts, saying that since belts add pounds, and all forms of raw allow belts, then why not knee wraps? Let's try this as a basic difference. Compare belts now with belts from 25 years ago. How much difference is there? Very little. Can you say the same thing about knee wraps? No! Knee wraps of today give much more rebound than knee wraps of 25 years ago. Even today, can you envision a situation in which people say, "wow, you gotta get those new knee wraps. They give at least 20 lbs more than anything else I've ever tried." Sure you can. How about with belts? The fact is, belts are either there or not there. They help, but they also protect. In fact, anything involving lifting almost universally uses lifting belts. Not so with knee wraps.
Which is all to say that I believe that the advocates for knee wraps in raw are wrong, but stubborn, and that rather than confuse the issue of which lifts are actually raw, separate them into different categories.
You can go to any local sports store and buy belts, wrist wraps, and knee wraps and then go to the gym and use them and see other lifters using them dating way back to the old days when others lifted. I never heard people in the gym say "I wear these knee wraps or belt or wrist wraps because they give me extra pounds". I also think there is a psycholigical advantage to using heavier weight with knee wraps on and that might add to what you think is extra pounds.
This type of lifting using wraps has been around forever and is true to strength training.
Now fast forward to today and you cannot go into a sports store and buy a squat suit, bench shirt or deadlifting suit. As the salesman and he will probably say "what?" Go to your local gym and put on a bench shirt and listen to people who say, "what the heck is he wearing?" Then most people lie and say it's for support and won't tell the average gym lifter they wear it because they get an extra 200-300 lbs on their lifts.
So those are the two types of lifting we've seen over the years. Wraps have always been around for joint support, and safety purposes not because some lifter can get hundreds of pounds out of them. I've never heard a bench pressers say they get a ton out of their wrist wraps and that's why they where them. Then you have the 2nd type of lifting with suits and shirts.
This is also why the general public doesn't give a rats ass about assisted lifting and considers us a joke. So get 100 lbs out of gear and some get hundreds of lbs out of gear. But when they see some squat or bench wearing only wraps they can relate and know how strong that person is.
wraps=original lifts (always been around in weightlifting call it raw or some other name).
suits and shirts=assisted lifting.
I thought safety was important in this sport...but since there is a problem with wraps then if you want to take that out how no belts or sleeves and let that be raw....I can see how an erector suit and squat suit is not raw but knee wraps is raw, a belt is raw....
everyone says knee wraps and a belt can't be compared in terms of how much help they give. i find that if i wear a belt right it'll stop me in the hole right at proper depth and i get about 50 pounds out of it. do wraps increase the weight one can lift? yes. is it unfair if it's allowed to everyone? no. i think it's a safety issue.
Do you? So if a new wrap material was developed that gave much more rebound, you wouldn't use it because it doesn't add more safety? Of course you would. And it wouldn't be any safer! On the other hand, explain how you could even go about improving a belt to add pounds. Nothing has been figured on that in the last 25 years, so I wouldn't think too much about it. The fact is, a belt is a level playing field (and it doesn't have any rebound), knee wraps are all rebound, and a constant chase to find more. And not raw!
Everyone of you people have been crying for years right here on this forum that there has been to many divisions of the sport and it is to watered down and there is no competition any more but YET you same people want to add another division. You make no sense what so ever. If you call belts and wraps Classic and then add in RAW (no belt or wraps) again isnt that watering it down even further? And for what, just so half of you can feel like you got your way about something. Well look at i this way, half of you already have your way about it the way it is without any changes. Look at the pole 50% against 50% for. Thats the way every topic on here is. What good is it and what comes out of it. Heres the answer more silly hits on the site that makes nothing any better for the sport of Powerlifting. Any subject that is put on here turns out the same way and any time someone says something about it it gets deleted.
The answer for the lifters is lift where you like and go by the set of rules you like. There will never be one set of rules and rightly so there shouldn't be. Everyone has the right to do as they please and no one likes being told what they can and can't do. No matter if there where changes made every day some one wouldn't like them and still be on here complaining about them and then saying they wish things were the way they use to be. The federations that we have aren't going to chance simply because some one thinks he or she knows best and there will be more federations in the future, facts of life.
I totally disagree...guys originally started wearing knee wraps because they realized they could lift more weight with them. It started with ace bandages, then they started making them out of "jock strap" waist bandages, then they started started using wraps with half cut tennis balls behind their knees. Trust me, this wasn't to keep their knees safe....it was to lift more weight don't kid yourself!