Should Squats be Eliminated from Powerlifting?

No, internet judges who don't really judge... or even lift for that matter, should be eliminated from the sport

Don't think this statement is true---In addition to judging issues, the squat is clearly the least popular of the three lifts.

It is a fundamental part of the sport and can't be dropped.

Squat, Bench, Deadlift. You have to do all three to be a Powerlifter. There are great specialists out there, but Powerlifting is 3 lifts.

Lift in the fed that you want to lift in and have fun.

Agree. Eliminating the squat would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. It completely evades the real issue of judging by people who are not judges. I don't have any problem with any of the judging going on in the squat, regardless of federation. Most judges miss a call now and then, just like in football, baseball, etc. But what's important is, in those sports the League supports those judges in their decisions. If not there would be chaos. All federations I know of support their judges. Its the armchair judges who constantly want to second guess the call on the field that are the problem.

We should stick to the declaration, "After further review, the call on the field stands!"

X2

YES

next thing you know they'll be judging on the best outfit or why don't we just do curls?! if you can't squat go home and play with yourself. whether judges are good or bad, in your head you know if you had a good lift. better yet, they should check your pants after the lift and if there's a shit stain it was a good lift.

Olympic lifting dropped the press due to inconsistancy in judging- true. It also began to resemble the clean and jerk. The Squat is a distinct lift in powerlifting. It will never resemble the deadlift or bench and must be part of the sport. It may or may not be well liked but many of us have lifts we dont like. If they got rid of the deadlift I would win more meets. Its part of the game.

Squatting is my least favorite part of the meet. That said, I prefer full meets to push/pulls or single lift meets. Why? Squatting is part of the game. So are judging irregularities and sour grapes whining from the peanut gallery long after the real judges have hit the switch.

As for weightlifting as a precendent for dropping a lift from the sport, I would hardly call the removal of the press a step forward for weightlifting. It was an impressive event. I don't care how much lean and body english they used, the big pressers of the 60s/70s were bad as hell. It was a true test of power more than speed/finesse such as C&J and snatch are.

PLing is a very participatory sport, and that's done already through WABDL. If that's your thing vote with your feet and $.

But remove the squat and its not the same sport. I tend to think the noise we see much exceeds the real problem.

The ideal solution for better squat depth judgement would be technology based i expect.

Keep the squat, the bench and the deadlift, that is what makes powerlifting.

Regina

We simply need qualified and honest Referees who actually are Ref's and know the real rules of the sport.

Perhaps the org's who have the problems with meeting this criteria should drop Squats.

The squat is my least favorite lift to do... it never bothered me in my youth but pushing 60 years old somehow it suddenly seems dangerous. This said I think we need to keep all three, especially now that there are places where you can only bench or only deadlift if you are a specialist.

Stupid ass discussion! Not much else to say about it, other then, just get the judging right.

Or....since you have stated that the rules for a legal squat are the same in all feds, maybe the platform judges should be the ones who need to change. Watch IPF guys and then watch APF lifters. Hell, go on youtube and watch the Garry Frank documentary where he basically hits IPF depth with 900 in the WPO, and then look up Mike Miller's 1250, which shows the changes in judging in the same fed with the same equipment. And later in the Frank vid he is red lighted at a meet for depth and he hits well below what many multiply lifters hit today.
This argument is also going to be applied to the other lifts as well. Watch Bolton's lockout on the 1003 vid and the 1008 vid. Compared to 1008, 1003 doesn't look locked out. Then go watch Belyaev do 800, or Konstantin doing 900 and see the differences in the three lockouts.

squats are powerlifting

many meets i have been to the standard of judging is set during the lifters openers. So people should see how deep they have to squat. Lifters should just learn to squat deep and stop complaining

I'll preface this by saying - yes I did bomb on the squat last week, but I didn't bomb on depth, so I don't have an axe to grind regarding depth. I think the judging at the arnold was good. I bombed because I messed up, not because the judges messed up.

Sabre Schnitzer has developed an outstanding squat depth checker. We all know this already. It uses two reference points - the top of the knee, and the top of the hip joint. According to the rules, where the hip joint must go lower than the knee joint, if this depth checker measures 91 or more degrees of squatting, its a good squat. Little bit of tweaking, and it can be adjusted to judge depth for any federation's standard of depth.

If there is a dispute about squat depth, and squat depth only, something like this needs to be used for instant replay. Maybe a jury can look at it and either go with the judges or overrule the judges. Endless bickering will get us nowhere. Actual action needs to be taken.

There needs to be a degree of progressivism. As technology improves, it should be implemented as appropriate.

On a side note, Part 3 of the Hitler PL series should be done by this weekend. ;)

Why, with all advances in gear technology, can't anyone just install a fucking $15 webcam at knee level? There are plenty of lifters out there who already do it themselves in training!

Leave the refs in place, video squats from the side, and have the jury review video when a call is a split decision. It's not rocket science.

A lof of people are so upset about online "haters". Have your fed implement the above, and watch the "haters" fade away -- especially if a feed from that cam is provided to all.

It's interesting to note that most of the larger fed's all have the same rules regarding Squat Depth...including illustrations to emphasize their point.

Enforcement of Depth is another matter. Anyone can Squat to proper depth if they train that way. This requires honest training partners and knowledgeable Coaching.

Consistent Refereeing is also possible with proper training and maintenance of currency and a uniform Federation Policy.

Unfortunately the World we live in is a flawed one. Shit happens....

Remove the Squat..??? You have got to be kidding!!

"USPF....the Legend continues......"

....says dude on the internet.

Can we also consider eliminating bench press? With all the "belly benching" and non lockouts that are allowed to pass as good lifts....this needs to be fixed too. (Just kidding of course about the elimination of bench...not about the belly benchers. Enforce and follow the rules in the rule book and all will be fine.)

Squats should be replaced with the barbell curl.

How about the weighted pullup? I'd be the Lamar Gant of the weighted pullup :P

If you take the squat out of the Powerlifting you'd be changing the sport, no offense to nobody but BP and DL are lifts that are more easy to do than the Squat. So a lot of the reputation of the powerlifters hang on the squat because you can go to a gym and you'll see the respect from all the other in fitness trining to those who makes the deep squats. Although, squat is the most studied lift in the sport's science, so it does gives us powerlifters an interesting view from the scientifics and from the public. It is true that there are differents in judging but thats because there are to many feds, and that is the real problem in powerlifting, the separation weaken us and unity must strength us all.

hmm. by the tone of this thread, the only thing left is the deadlift. far less controversy and the equipment isn't as useful either?

i would say the bench is far from what it was a few years ago, due to all the supershirts. arguably it's no longer a real bench press.

the squat, well, the depth is an issue. some people are doing a big knee bench, their butts never head south sufficiently. yet these efforts are hailed as overall records - in the face of such lifters as ed coan who sank it and others who put their weights down more where most lifters believe a squat should be.

let's face it, short of parallel is gymrat brag land, not where a real powerlifter should be. either get it down or stop calling it a squat.

that goes for everybody. i don't care if you use a monolift and a zillion layers of canvas, if you don't hit parallel at least - you aren't squatting. you're just joining legions of gymrats who think they squat, but they squat not.

as for the refs, let's see consistency and not overdue bs where you pass anything because the weight is huge. don't want people to question your call, then call it right.

either park your butts down where they belong or PARK YOUR EGOS!

(my vote for the PL emmy is the old classic, "i like to squat it, squat it")

yikes. that should read "deep knee BEND" not bench....hate to invent a new lift and a new fed the way this is going.

Well no- that's not what I said. I said that speed and technique plays a much larger roll in the split jerk (or snatch) than in a press. I disagree about the WLing improving for the better. But to each his own.

why would you want to take something away just because there is incompetent judges out there. Leave the three disciplines alone and get better judges that sticks with the rules. SQUAT, BENCH, DEADLIFT each showing a different strength. They are needed!!!!!

The judges in the USAPL are not incompetent. They just have standards of performance.

If they remove the squat there is no way I will stay in this sport. I'm still young and would try some LW strongman competitions.
There is a reason why they say ,,squats seperate the boys from the men".

IF they remove the squat Konstantinovs would be the strongest powerlifter who ever walked on earth. Noone could match him.

I have often said that the best way for squat depth to be determined is to put a band around the competitor's leg with a strip on top and when he/she goes to the proper depth as predetermined before hand, as rack height, with the use of a light or lazer beam that causes a beep or buzzer; then the lifter will know that they have reached the proper depth, as well as the side judges.

Don't eliminate the squat.

Just improve the consistency and honesty of the judging.

The USAPL already have qualified and honest referees, you just don't agree with them.

Regina

let's eliminate the bench. the standards for that are worse than the squat: soft handoffs, barely touch-n-go, belly benching, no full lockouts, kevlar shirts with 12-ply collars, etc.

I AGREE. POWERLIFTING IS 3 LIFTS AND NOTHING LESS. UNLESS YOUR SPECIALTY IS IN ANYINE SINGLE EVENT.

RYAN RIGDON

Is it April fools day already?

Neither this suggestion, nor a webcam pointing at the hip would work in practice.

People don't squat the same under a maximal load as they do unweighted so a predetermined depth point ala rack height would not be consistent with the lifts as performed under load on the platform.

The webcam idea while it holds merit, would be difficult to implement as well, if a squat went 2w/1r and the red came from the side with the webcam, would the jury or whoever is watching be able to overturn the 2 whites from the front and the other side on the basis of a single point of view? If you had cameras pointing at both hips, you would need a way to synchronize the feeds in real time and relay it to the judges/jury/review committee, and they would need to make a judgment call immediately.

Even with the time limit on replay review in the NFL it adds an unnecessary break in the action, and as much as I love squatting...making it longer would be awful.

You're on deck, you're getting wrapped, the squatter ahead of you get 2/1 and it goes to the review...and you have to wait? You get to squat as planned but the jury overturns it later?

Obviously these issues could be dealt with on a consensus basis and be written into the rulebooks, but it is not merely as simple as point a camera at their hips. Especially when you start to consider the sizes of various lifters, the camera would have to be adjusted with the lifter same as rack height.

It would add time and additional technical difficulty to the running of a meet.

The squat depth, Bench lockout has all to do with the quality of judges and how subjective this sport can be. If you follow the rules as the book states them and leave out your interpretation the sport would clean it self up. But as soon as a judge gives you a white light when you clearly have not locked out a bench press because of your elbow problem, that's the judges fault, and the Federations fault. Until the book says you can tell a judge before a lift that You have trouble locking out or I cant hit depth, then you shouldn't get the lift. As a lifter you have the right to hold the Judges responsible, as a Judge it's my responsibility to uphold the rules that are the foundation of the sport. If it's not in the book it can't be enforced. Go to your State Chairman and start there. Demand it from them.

the solution is not to drop the squat, but to encourage proper judging by eliminating the small group of feds that make little to no attempt to enforce the rules from lifter rankings. if the offending feds where relegated to the status of Son Light Power here and in PL USA i think you might see quite an improvement from all but the worst cases.

LOL no, the rules just need to be enforced properly and explained in detail to the judges & competitors.

www.biolayne.com

I think the only reasonable argument to get rid of the squat must center on lifter and spotter safety. Virtually every USPF meet I go to someone dumps a weight that could seriously injure either the lifter or spotters. Organizations that require a walkout should rethink this and allow a monolift with straps, and still a walkout.

Squat depth is simply a function of judging. Bad judges = depth issues.

Why are lifts done in federations that doesn't follow the rulebook on squat acknowledged here on PLWatch anyways? Just curious.

Judging of lifts -- all lifts -- is done by humans, on site and on the web. Squat depth, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. But at least there are standards that are easier to discern than for judging figure skating. Squatting, benching, and pulling -- that's powerlifting; everything else is a fraction of the whole...and that's ok. Look at the number of posts this topic generated. Train hard; lift heavy; eat pizza! I love this stuff!

All these posts and no WABDL jokes yet?

That is not what I wrote.

I can agree with what you wrote, but I'm also biased infavor of monolifts for obvious reasons.

Ha, that would be even a worse judgment call. Did they hit proper depth? Did they get to full extension?

Those bands need to be put on just right and they have a tendency to slip. You could easily manipulate it to so that the buzzer goes off before legal depth.

Solution to that is to do what some orgs do and have something to catch the bar like chains, straps or safety racks.

Damn, I feel like Jeff Hackett with all the answers right now.

Who even brought this up?
Every other sport has armchair quarterbacks questioning a ref's call... how many football games go by without at least one questionable call?

The difference is that nobody in pro football or baseball etc gives a crap about what some nerd on the couch thinks about a judging call, the ref just calls what they see. I have no idea why powerlifting sites give anon. posters who weren't at a meet any credit on their judging calls.... just like any other sport some people have gotten gifts and some have been screwed.... get over it.

Now with more " shut up and lift"

Ok, so you know who has judged, and whether they lift??? Who are you, The Great Karnak?

Hey I just got my eyes opened when Madvig told us about the 90 degree rule on Mike Bridges squats. What the hell does that have to do with the squat to breaking parallel.

This shit doesn't make sense and no wonder we all have it screwed up, even the strictest guys don't know the rules.

Lifters have to police their fed to get what is proper and what is not. This is where the lifter votes with his dollar and patronage.

You don't drop the squat, just the judges that refuse to follow the rules.

Glenn Baggett
NGBB Elite

Im astounded by this logic. It's okay to suggest elimination of 1/3rd of the sport, but its not okay to suggest we just have the sport the way it was before (elimination of gear)

gear CAUSES most of the high squats, but no, lets change the core of this sport...

WTF

This is truly amazing stuff, really.

There will always be controversial judging. Same with boxing and mma, same with calls in any major sport. It happens. Its the way sport is. There will always be controversial calls.

But as a whole, PL is okay.

You don't drop the whole event!

The issue is not what is said on the internet... this is merely an effect of what is going on at various meets. And I have news for you... many of these so called "experienced" meet judges are no more qualified than any other powerlifters. Hell, I've been to meets where judges were solicited out of the audience. Case in point... what do most judges do in order to become a judge... was there an official training protocol? Not likely.... and this is why your reference to pro sports does not hold. The issue here is consistency... this is what is lacking in some feds. The judging in the USAPL (and some others) is consistent... notice I did not say perfect. Are some bad calls made? Absolutely! But, for the most part, you will find that lifts made in the so-called "strict" feds are consistent with what is outlined in their rulebook. This is the difference, and this is why there is so much bad blood between guys who are supposed to be competing in the same sport.

No

Sponsored by APT, House of Pain, Jenkins Chiropractic, BMF Sports & Titan

Yeah, I agree. The total bastardization of the rules of performance was simply a matter of evolution, and of no detriment at all.

Agreed... some might argue that it would be too expensive, or time consuming, but I think the benefit to the sport would be well worth the effort. Imagine if we could all get on the same page... at least on this particular debate.

Because we control the media, silly.

Squat depth is no more difficult that judging balls/strikes in baseball. Baseball spent huge money on that strike zone system, and all they learned is the umpire is right well over 90% of the time. If we had the same quality of judges in powerlifting, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

The difference is being a baseball umpire is a profession that requires years of training and years of work experience before you get to the MLB level. We just don't have the budget for that kind of development program for powerlifting judges.

It's really up to meet directors. They are the ones that choose the judges for their meets. Everyone knows who the stricter and looser judges are in their local area.

www.wildirongym.com
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Quite simply put. The squat is the greatest of all the lifts. Of course that just my opinion.

The squat if a part of powerliting. Maybe the judging just needs to catch up with technology.
There are ways to judge the depth and angle by laser and video combination. This can produce instant results for the side judges in the area of angle and depth.
The federations just need to start using technology to help them judge.

The Squat will never go away.

Not going to happen. We are still going to see high squats in multiply feds and good squats redlighted in single ply. No one is going to change so I guess we will continue to have two kinds of squats, which is why I am done with competitive squating and will use it instead as a deadlift assistance exercise, just like shoulder the press for bench.

Jeff Hackett.

I have lifted with the IPA, APF, ISA, WABDL, MSA, etc. and I have seen the inconsistencies in judging and have been the victim of some bad calls. I didn't whine about it though. I just went home and trained harder so there was no way I could be denied the next time.

The thought of getting rid of the squat is crazy! Your going to have as many opinion's of what a good squat is as there are people in the world it's just part of the game. The issue of squat depth in powerlifting is like the issues of sex and money in a marriage. As long as you're in the relationship you're just going to have to deal with it.

No!!!! That would be as silly as eliminating the home run in baseball unless it went a certain distance.
After at least a year in powerlifting almost all of us know what a true acceptable squat is.
If some feds accept an obviously high lift you are hurting your credibility lifting with that fed.
The USAPL despite sometimes silly ideas that penetrate a few judges gives a lifter THE MOST CREDIBILITY when a lift is recorded in one of their meets. They follow the depth that was established in the beginning so that our lift comparisons are fair to previous generations of lifters, at least when raw and not wearing modern gear.
I think i still hold a few usapl and uspf age/weight american records and i believe a significant majority of lifters believe my squats to be good without demanding to see video proof.
Take away the squat and you are not powerlifting.

Definitely NO! What a load of shit

most ignorant thing this site has ever put up. if squats are abolished, i will never compete again and devote my life solely to crossfit, p90 x, and the south beach diet.

have you tried explaining to them the power of your training system? that should turn them around.

First of all, no the squat shouldn't be removed from powerlifting. That is like removing linemen from football, it is the foundation of the sport!

If anything, I wonder why we don't have a squat only division. There are bench only guys, and deadlift only guys, why not squat only? There are plenty of big squatters who I believe would love to jump at the chance to be in a squat only division.

There is no way shape or form that the squat can be removed from the sport. It is absurd to think so, I do believe exploring the option of a squat only division would be something worthwhile. Anybody else think so?

The squat has been, is, and always will be the KING of all strength training movements. Training for powerlifting starts with, revolves around, and ends with the squat. When you become stronger in the squat, you become stronger overall.

It should remain in our sport and removing it, for any reason, would be foolish. Unfortunately, we'll never all agree on proper squat depth. That doesn't mean that the squat should be eliminated. Judges for gymnastics and figure skating and other similar sports don't eliminate components that might seem difficult to judge. I also concur with previous posts that bench press and deadlift specialists are not powerlifters. They're no more powerlifters than those that only squat.

Powerlifting is the performance of ALL THREE lifts.

KEEP THE SQUAT.

THis has been talked about for yearssss. It's old. The squat isn't going anywhere, so drop it.

Wow....this is going to sound funny coming from me but wtf...You don't just drop a lift from competition because of poor judging, you work towards fixing the problem by getting judges who go by a STRICT standard. That's why you have WABDL or push/pull selection in some feds and even bench only. You don't just drop the an essential from a sport because of idiots who can't judge.

Mainly I have to ask who has the power to remove squats from anything? Maybe NASA? hahahaha, they alreadt did it so just go there if you dont like it

here an idea , ask ALL the lifters that were at these meets how high they were allowed to squat and see what they say.

Or people that call people liars. And when proven wrong dont have the class to admit they were wrong. And apoligize to the individual that was bashed on the net for posting with his name.

sounds about right, Regina?

even the great ed coan competed in an apf/wpo meet and cut his squat. ask him.

If u cant squat, quit powerlifting join a scrapbooking club, start wearing a skirt, and stop cryin about how hard squats are....PU@@ys!!!!!!... SHUT UP AND SQUAT!!!!!!

HELL F@@KING NO!!!!!!!!!!

If u cant squat, quit powerlifting join a scrapbooking club, start wearing a skirt, and stop cryin about how hard squats are....PU@@ys!!!!!!... SHUT UP AND SQUAT!!!!!!

AMEN!!!!!!!!

Squats are the only reason I compete. Hell with those push pull meets, SQUATS is where it starts.

This thread is an indication of the control/influence ignorant non-participants have who are typically sitting on the sideline being critical of those with whom they can't relate at all.

Do you really think if squat was the "least popular lift" it'd elicit so much attention on these silly forums?

Real news must be slow today.

I must be a little slow today, I don't quite understand your post? Want to clarify it?

Regina

Why don't feds change the wording of their rules to genuinely reflect their view of the appropriate depth of a "good" squat? I enjoy watching the multi-ply squats as much as the IPF squats, but they are nowhere near the same. Watching the squats from the Arnold vs. the ones of Hoff and Carroll lately are apples and oranges, and I am not making a value judgment on either. My opinion (which I’m sure means as much to you, as others’ opinions means to me) is that Hoff and Carroll’s seemed high, and many of the red-lighted Arnold squats looked good. I mean honestly, no one really compares multi-ply/single-ply or raw squats against each other anyway. Why not have the feds be honest with everyone and state exactly what their expectations are, so we can just move on and enjoy this sport…

As far as some people making statements about internet judges needing to be banned… It seems to me that you could find similar message boards for most any sport, and we don’t see ARod or Peyton Manning or Kobe Bryant coming on message boards and crying about what people are saying about their recent performances… the whole purpose of these are purely for entertainment and healthy debate by fans… and I am sorry but I this very entertaining and it absolutely hilarious that so many world-class athletes (such as many of you are) get bent out of shape by anonymous hecklers (such as myself) that make points that are clearly exaggerated and/or over-the-top.