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We Want Our Medals!

IDPFA members, led by Worlds competitor Ben Loughrey and former WDFPF Vice President Anita Mahony, have launched an attack on World meet organizers Neil Abery and Rick Meldon for not handing out medals to finishers in each age grouping at the Championships. By all accounts, the meet was very well run save for the medals. However, Loughery says that lifters from around the world are angry with the organizer's decision. Mahony even claims that she resigned from her position in the federation due to the issue.

Loughrey at the IDFPA forum:

All of the lifters I have spoken to feel the same as I do about this.

We all paid a £70 entry fee. A lot to pay, I thought and personally, I expected something good in return.

Rick Meldon and Neil Abery decided that there would be no medals or trophies for age groups and that each weight class would have only three medals. How do they expect a 15 year old to compete with, for example, a 30 year old with 10+ years of training behind them? Instead they opted for the cheap option of handing out pitiful certificates, that in some cases weren't even filled in. On the Saturday night a pile of these very expensive certificates that hadn't been collected were dumped in the hotel foyer. Obviously they weren't that costly. Rick also took it upon himself to make a point of saying that the younger lifters who had in fact topped their age groups weren't winners.

Spectators were charged £5 entry fees and t-shirts were being sold at £9. The list of sponsors included Seat, Worcester Bosch Group, David Lloyd, Howdens Joinery, ALR Property Maintenance, Treelife, TerryHardyPhoto, Body Limits, Richard Coveney Motor Services, Ultimate Print & Design and Pullum Sports. With so many sponsors and fees, where the hell did all the money go?

To top it all off, after some people complained to Rick about the situation he told a few of the Irish lifters, that "If you don't like it, you can **** off to another association."

From what I can see, Rick Meldon and Neil Abery have walked away with their pockets full after cashing in on us spending our hard earned money on entering their competition. Maybe they want to buy themselves some manners? They have made a joke out of the WDFPF and I think that something must be done to prevent this from happening in future. I am definitely going to reconsider ever competing outside of Ireland in the WDFPF again.

I will at least finish on a good note. Thanks to the officials and in particular the spotters and loaders who were exceptional. Some of the lifting at the weekend was incredible and it's just a pity that none of the lifters got the respect they deserved

Abery responds: "any other sport in the world does not reward people for just turning up you earn your reward for coming top 3. it was not a junior champs or a masters champs and as for your moronic "£5 medal" comment they cost £30 each and anyone wanting to show their mates that they won a cheap title I can supply them at cost price and then we can all be champions that would be great and nobody would have to aspire to achieve anything. this is not sports day at school!!! It was the world powerlifting championships not the junior or masters championships and if your open and came out of the top 3 train harder get better and next year hope to win... the idea was that the certs state that you are a junior/ master champion or whatever place in the open and that the class got gold silver and bronze."

Abery comments on the assertions that they made a boatload of money on the event: "One point to consider in the costs of the event was the excellent loaders and spotters, we paid each of them a fee and also put them up in the Hilton for two nights as well.12 spotters x 2 days!!! That is just one cost out of loads.If you feel that you need to know what our costs were we will print a full list of accounts when we receive our final bill from the Hilton, which includes lunch for all referees both days, including Thomas Coyle, infact we treated Thomas to dinner the first night he was here. Shame you only mention money issues and couldn't even have the grace to mention the world class venue and equippment, which also come at a considerable cost.Anita, you weren't even here which was fine by us as we specifically made it clear to our admin helpers that we did not want your sub standard help. as for pockets full of cash, if anything at all was made it was on door entries and t-shirts, remember that we, the organisers also paid for the drug testing in full... please explain how I can afford to award such a high quality medal to everyone? the figures just do not add up with testing venue fees etc.... I ask you all this.....was the venue fantastic? was the stage platform and weights area fantastic?"

Mahony: "I will be speaking to Thomas Coyle who was at the event and i feel it may well be appropriate for the IDFPA to lodge a letter of complaint to the Organisers of the event, the BDFPA and the WDFPF. It is such a shame that the IDFPA are doing such a good job at home and then the IDPFA lifters are being put off lifting with the federation because of what goes on at International Events that is totally out of our control."

Mahony continues: "The WDFPF do not yet hold separate championships for different age categories. Thus this event was not just an Open Championships and if the organisers decided this is what they wanted to run, they should have indicated this to the Executive when making their bid for the event, highlighted it on the entry form and returned the entry fees of the teenage, junior and master lifters that I, and every other nation entered under what we are now told, was false pretences. Im looking forward to seeing the results to see just how many lifters were actually Open lifters rather than those entered by their federations in their relevant age categories as stated on the form. Perhaps now, as the competition was advertised on false pretenses, the organisers should return the entry fees, travel & accommodation costs of those entered in an event that did not cater for them."

ADFPF Competition Chair Mike Stagg "Having run the World's last year, I can attest to the hard work and expense that goes into these events. And you can't make everyone happy. I doubt they made TOO MUCH money as I'm sure these were custom cast medals. Any of you engineer types could likely guess at the cost for a custom cast and small volume of medals....

Now having said that...I see everyone's frustration. However, the band (that most did not go see)was simply outstanding and that was a nice touch. At the end of the day...everyone here was already a champion and probably has a closet full of awards. I think the teens and some Master lifters kind of felt disrespected which is understandable. However, let's (all countries) work to improve our organization by getting involved. I think the IDFPA has an outstanding leader in Tom Coyle and he is now on the technical committee for the WDFPF. I really look forward to the meet next year and HOPE to see all my good friends there that I have made over the past several years. "


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Come on guys, we don't need no stinking medals ?

We were just trying to beat ourselves, remember ?

That is all we care about, the lifting , the food, the wine and mostly the women !

Now that I think about it ....

Give us our goddamn medals !

its just a medal. who cares. and the point about a 15yr old not being able to compete with an older lifter is correct but thats how sports work. let that 15yr old train and EARN a first place finish. not everyone gets to be first. you guys sound like a bunch of trophy hunting whiners to me!! I dont define my success by how many trophies i have, i define it on whether i have made progress from my last meet. powerlifting is about competing against yourself. no one else matters. SUCK IT UP AND GROW UP

Sorry, but nobody is making a fortune running a powerlifting meet. It is a little ridiculous to have teens travel all that way in anticipation of competing against their own age group and have them be lumped in with the open. As well it is a good point that this meet was not advertised the way it is being portrayed. You cannot decide the weekend of the meet that your going to lump kids and oldies with the opens. That aside, who cares about medals that much? You were there, you lifted, and it is documented. This is not always a feel good sport. At this point, sounds a little bit dramatic. Actually, what the hell am I doing even commenting? Numbers matter, not awards.

Disgusting, its getting out of hand paying this amount of money to enter a show. £70?? wtf and not just this fed. The promoters are so for the lifter. What a load of bull. Makes me laugh, if you need a lifter to pay £65-70 to enter a contest just to cover the costs you shouldnt be running a show in the first place. Its incredible, I think there will be a lot of lifters not competing next year

Whining about not getting a medal for being an also-ran... Good thing I stopped calling myself a powerlifter a long time ago, because shit like this is just embarrassing.

I would request that everyone keep their comments positive. The WDFPF ALWAYS enters everyone into the open by default. Usually, some award is given out for catagory winners as well (like T1 and T2). It costs a lot of money to run a proper, professional competition. Calling teens and master's who competed "also-ran" is simply disprespectful. These guys qualified and had to apply to be selected. I don't think the medal is what is really upsetting them. It is the lack of respect given for them being anything other than an open lifter.

Notice that there are ZERO comments over the venue, judging or rules infractions. You won't find any high squats passed, belly benches or hitched, partially locked out deadlifts.

These athletes made the choice to lift in this division due to the qualities listed above. If arguing over a silly medal is the worse critism of the WDFPF then they are heading in the right direction. BTW----the awards are determined by meet promoters in any event and not the sanctioning body.

Powerlifting is all about the medals, everybody getting first place in their super special division, and being a world champion and world record holder.

From reading through the posts, it seems as if there is as much of an issue about the organisers' attitude towards the lifters as the medal situation

I give out medals every year for school functions.... a medal costs a whopping $4, a trophy maybe $10 just to have something cheap to give away. For an adult who has competed before all I like is a letterhead with any records I have broken or just my lifts recorded. I have enough trophies. But for a 15 year old kid to scrape together that much money and come home empty handed.... that's very different.

Now with more " shut up and lift"

Can anybody scan and post a copy of the Entry Form? That is usually where there should be an indication of how many Awards there will be per Division.

Is that how it is typically done at the regular Meets in their organization? If so, then there is no valid complaint. If not, then it does cause one to raise an eyebrow.

In a High School Nationals, for example, where there are 350 to 400 Entries, it is not uncommon to only give Awards to the Top 5 in each Division/Weight Class. Sometimes there are 10 or more Teens in a particular Division, and nobody cries when only the Top 5 get Awards.

Is it more likely that many have never attended a Large Meet, never placed lower than 5th, and so, never went away without an Award before?

At an open level meet, juniors, sub juniors, and masters shouldn't be awarded unless they've placed top 3 in their respective classes.
If you want a medal, place top 3, or do a junior/masters worlds, stop the complaining and EARN it

Carlos de Tomas wrote:
Powerlifting is all about the medals, everybody getting first place in their super special division, and being a world champion and world record holder.

LOL, and then finding a competition where the officials all forgot to wear their glasses and becoming the all time super special division world record holder.

Anonymous wrote:
At an open level meet, juniors, sub juniors, and masters shouldn't be awarded unless they've placed top 3 in their respective classes.
If you want a medal, place top 3, or do a junior/masters worlds, stop the complaining and EARN it

but the problem is that only the open winners got medals, when there were junior/masters/teen divisions

bull crap, kids should win awards 1-3rd place. open, jr's, eens, whoever, should recieve awards or placing in each division. especially if going abroad.

Fattest Illinois Lifter wrote:

Now with more " shut up and lift"

LOL! My nig

btw....
I've been lifting forever. I never even heard of the IDFPA.

aside from that... wasn't this a WORLD meet? ... probably suppose to be the most prestigious meet of the year for that organization. It seems you would reward all the lifters with something. Everyone should get a participation certificate. First through third should get half way decent gold/silver/bronze trophies or medals. The first place finishers of their weight classes (by age division) should get those cheap little 2" medals at least.

scenario:

15 year old kid travels abroad for "world" championships. Kid comes home tells everyone he won his weight class. Everyone asks him what he won to which he replies "nothing"

that's just not a good thing any way you look at it, and discouraging for a beginning lifter for certain. Come on leprechauns, get with it.

Putt Houston.... now with Ridiculous BCWW

'm not really surprised by this whole outcomes. the organizer in question has a well earned bad reputation within the sport so it doesnt surprise me that he would do such a thing.

I'm gutted for the lifters that busted their asses by training and working to gain the finance only to receive a piece of paper.

The organizer in question should be COMPLETELY ashamed of himself and something should be done about this.

Putt Houston wrote:

Come on leprechauns, get with it.

It was a british man who was responsible, not Irish.

Putt Houston wrote:
btw....
I've been lifting forever. I never even heard of the IDFPA.

aside from that... wasn't this a WORLD meet? ... probably suppose to be the most prestigious meet of the year for that organization. It seems you would reward all the lifters with something. Everyone should get a participation certificate. First through third should get half way decent gold/silver/bronze trophies or medals. The first place finishers of their weight classes (by age division) should get those cheap little 2" medals at least.

scenario:

15 year old kid travels abroad for "world" championships. Kid comes home tells everyone he won his weight class. Everyone asks him what he won to which he replies "nothing"

that's just not a good thing any way you look at it, and discouraging for a beginning lifter for certain. Come on leprechauns, get with it.

Putt Houston.... now with Ridiculous BCWW

The IDFPA is the Irish affiliate of the WDFPF

Also, they were not running the competition, it was held in the UK

Like Mike Stagg said, it is more the lack of respect than any money issues. Some certificates given out weren't even filled in properly. I think it's pretty lazy not even to add up the total and fill it in? :S

Regarding the entry forms. Age was a requirement on the forms. I filled it in and was under the impression I was being entered into the junior class. Even during the competition I never looked at what the open competitors were lifting, as I never considered them my competition. I definitely feel I was misled.

Again, as stated, I want it to be clear besides the obvious issues the meet was well run and equipment top class.

i'd be pissed if my kidswere robbed

The next time enter the WPF they gave away nice Medals for there worlds. I dont blame you guys if i had won and not got anything in return i would be pissed off also. That's to bad i feel sorry for you guys.

The issue was that this was nor merely an OPEN event. To ignore teens, juniors and masters is wrong.

Obviously the Open is the most prestigious event - however to ignore everyone else stinks of arrogance and lack of consideration.

If the association let this go I think it will reflect really poorly on them. Some sort of action should be taken imo

The certificates were thrown in the foyer by Rick.

The 'banquet' that was promised by Rick never materialised. He simply handed out the MS Word clip art certificates on saturday.

He told people who approached him to 'F**k off to another association if you don't like it.'

The IDFPA forum says that he ran away from a few angry competitors disgusted by his lack of manners and class.

I think the promoters had the right intention...they just didn't execute it quite right. The intention was to give a recognition to all lifters (they used the certificates that were customized with lifts and placing. They underestimated the difficulty in completing the certificates after the meet. Then they gave custom medals to the tope three overall finishers.

Conceptually...this is okay, just executed poorly.

However, they did have a very good band perform on Sunday and the meet itself was run pretty well and was in a decent venue. It was maybe a little small given the number of competitors but it did run well. I can definately see how their personalities rubbed people the wrong way. There is probably a much better way to handle the discontent then the way they went about it.

The Single Events will be coming to the USA in 2011 and the Powerlifting Worlds will be in Ireland next year. I have heard good things about the IDFPA and everyone I have met from that org is top notch so I expect a great meet. I am sure the various national federations and comittess are well aware of the discontent and will work to improve the future meets.

I really like the way the WDFPF and how the recent ADFPF meets have been run by recognizing the top three finishers (in addition to the age division recognition). It brings more competition back into the meets which is sorely needed.

The certificates did not even have the weight lifted nor the forumla calculated. Spelling mistakes also.

Many were half blank and left by Rick himself in the hotel foyer.

Mike, did you pick up your certificate?

Yes....to be honest I like the certificate better (although I have to fill in the total and overall place). 5 years from now I will remember what my lifts were (although I might prefer to forget them).

BTW----I promise you will get an award if you travel to the USA for Single Events in 2011 :-)

Well---so long as you don't bomb!

Is this federation seriously going to let this lie after all the disquiet? They should listen to their lifters

Anonymous wrote:
Putt Houston wrote:

Come on leprechauns, get with it.

It was a british man who was responsible, not Irish.

Oh I see... man the joke is so much funnier with the word leprechaun.

someone go tell Austin Powers

Anonymous wrote:
Putt Houston wrote:
btw....
I've been lifting forever. I never even heard of the IDFPA.

aside from that... wasn't this a WORLD meet? ... probably suppose to be the most prestigious meet of the year for that organization. It seems you would reward all the lifters with something. Everyone should get a participation certificate. First through third should get half way decent gold/silver/bronze trophies or medals. The first place finishers of their weight classes (by age division) should get those cheap little 2" medals at least.

scenario:

15 year old kid travels abroad for "world" championships. Kid comes home tells everyone he won his weight class. Everyone asks him what he won to which he replies "nothing"

that's just not a good thing any way you look at it, and discouraging for a beginning lifter for certain. Come on leprechauns, get with it.

Putt Houston.... now with Ridiculous BCWW

The IDFPA is the Irish affiliate of the WDFPF

Also, they were not running the competition, it was held in the UK

so the Brits are the cheapskate douchebags and the Irish are in the clear now. That part I got.

Federation that people join becasue they cant win medals at IPF worlds, then they complain they dont get them here. Just go back to IPF if you cant take it there ffs...

IPF does not have a RAW world championship. Only the WDFPF has a world championship for RAW lifters that is truly international.

Quit crying about not getting a medal to brag with.I thought it was a sport to break your own records.Sounds like a bunch of little kids that didn't get their share of the pie.You try to run a meet then you can talk all the shit you want.

just wanted to know how come all welsh lifters at comp ,were put down as lifting from gbr great britain and all other lifters got there country of origin. guess some english organisers dont like the welsh they cant be bothered to put down the proper country.

If my memory serves me right, Ben Loughrey ran a meet last year some time.

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Yes, that guy did run a meet, so according to the post above it's fair for him to express his opinion

Welsh fan your right,
i heard that one of the Ukrainian lifters were called Russian as they received there "award".

Yes, open lifters should get weight class awards at least to 3rd, or to 5th (depends on number of entries and 4th and 5th awards will be much smaller and cheaper). As for the age groups, use formulas to get at least 5 people in a competition group and give awards for the grouping. For example, all the weight classes in an age group could be lumped together and Wilks or Schwartz formula used. Masters can incorporate age formulas. Good rule of thumb for high level competitions is that about 1/3 to 1/2 of the competitors would get an award. This what they did in the 1980's and earlier (until NASA showed up with trophies and classes for everyone). No one complained back then.
I race road racing go karts, they do not give awards to everyone. Typically more than two thirds do not get anything. I kept the trophies I won here. The powerlifting trophies I threw out, they do not mean anything anymore and take up space.
It appears the meet promoters spent money in areas that do matter, like good help, judges, and competition atmosphere. I help with meets spot loading and judging, never got paid hotel rooms. However, it looks like the they were not up front with who was to get medals, and the award portion of the meet was an after thought.

You do the work, you put in the time, and you get that first place, then you should be getting your prize for what you have accomplished. for $70 I better get something if got first place!

Ill just stick to multy ply feds :) at least they have a teen nationals

sam braun wrote:
You do the work, you put in the time, and you get that first place, then you should be getting your prize for what you have accomplished. for $70 I better get something if got first place!

Ill just stick to multy ply feds :) at least they have a teen nationals

Its actually more like $100 - the price is in pounds

sam braun wrote:
You do the work, you put in the time, and you get that first place, then you should be getting your prize for what you have accomplished. for $70 I better get something if got first place!

Ill just stick to multy ply feds :) at least they have a teen nationals

£70 is actually closer to 115 US dollars!

crabillb wrote:
Sorry, but nobody is making a fortune running a powerlifting meet. It is a little ridiculous to have teens travel all that way in anticipation of competing against their own age group and have them be lumped in with the open. As well it is a good point that this meet was not advertised the way it is being portrayed. You cannot decide the weekend of the meet that your going to lump kids and oldies with the opens. That aside, who cares about I donmedals that much? You were there, you lifted, and it is documented. This is not always a feel good sport. At this point, sounds a little bit dramatic. Actually, what the hell am I doing even commenting? Numbers matter, not awards.
I dont know about everyone else here,but 1000 dollars is quite a bit of money to me.I know for a fact,that many meet holders are making much more than 1000 bucks,with concessions,enties,coverage charges,etc.
Having said that, I want the people putting the money out in advance,to make some money,but please dont say they arent making much.
come on gentlemen, give them their medals that they won fair and square.

if my kid competed and won his class and didnt get a medal... there would be an ass kicking if i had to fly there myself...

John Polak wrote:
It appears the meet promoters spent money in areas that do matter, like good help, judges, and competition atmosphere.

Exactly. A real lifter would care about those things, not about a plastic medal.

phreak wrote:
John Polak wrote:
It appears the meet promoters spent money in areas that do matter, like good help, judges, and competition atmosphere.

Exactly. A real lifter would care about those things, not about a plastic medal.

I think its justified to think about both. Ben won his class and deserves the whatever substance that makes a medal to prove it.

If it was a local meet then fair enough, but it was international.

I think this is typical of the attitude of the lifters in the WDFPA. Lets be honest, a lot of them only lift there to be a world champion or world record holder as they know they'd have no chance of achieving that in the IPF (just comparing tested feds here).

When you delve into this deeper, you will most likely find that the money appears to have been spent in the right areas - a good venue, equipment, spotters/loaders etc. Plus the fact that "officials" arriving from other countries also most likely expect to be wined and dined etc.

Give the guys a break, at least they made an effort to hold a world championships for you and as others have said, if you feel so strongly about it then train your butts off and win THEIR medals next year.

World championships titles and medals should be earned, not just handed out because you bothered to turn up!

Personally I wouldn't give a shit about something like medals.

But if I paid about £70 I would have been also frustrated if there was no adequate reward...

You try and raise the standards and this is what happens. So many lies above. I ran away from a polish teen, what a load of shit!! He was so polite and nice it wasn't true, I genuinely felt sorry for him that he only got a certificate. For your info, We supplied the certs to the WDFPA officials at the start of the meet then didn't have anything to do with them being filled in
Also, we spent money as people have pointed out on the right things, mainly the lifters wellfare on the platform. We paid all of the loaders and spotters to guarantee they turned up, of the 8 or so who promised to turn up and help for free, only 2 did so!!! If we hadn't paid them, there would have been no comp.
I'm glad I stuck to my guns to highlight the obvious problems that lie with in the WDFPF, they will all be resolved now and the WDFPF will be better for it
This was our legacy, there is now a standard WDFPF medal die in existance that all meet directors can use, the medals can now be produced at a lower cost so every class winner will now get one.
For the record, every competitor got an award of some sort as per the rules.
Now just let it go, get on with your lives and keep on training, get stronger and win

Wow,im completely blown away by this outcome of this competition but somehow not surprised.

I'm a junior competitor, If i went away and won my class or set records, i'd be devastated not to win a medal. The IPF hold seperate worlds for their lifters and reward them equal to their open championships. To say a junior or master is less deserving of a medal is complete crap. These spots and records have to be filled and won by SOMEONE, so to out them is disgraceful. its a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. not just an open one.

This is the reason i choose not to compete internationally with the WDFPF. It seems that each world championships has some sort of complaint that is above and beyond outrageous.

Enough of this duel platform crap - more days, reward the winners. If every other federation can do it, So can the WDFPF. I also hope that the insulting organizers drop their childish insults to certain people and are never allowed to ogranize a compeition again.

Also to highlight the insults that the organizers have shown on the idfpa website:

"i like my medal, im wearing it right now"
and my favourite "ill take a picture of my medal and post it"

...these are grown men people! I also heard rumours of Rick's nasty attitude, its all so clear now.

150+ lifters £70 entry over £10500 from entry and you cant afford to give masters and junior lifters medals come on.

It was a Polish teen and a huge Italian that Rick Meldon ran away from according to the idfpa.plus.com website.

Ha ha ha, thats a good one . Must have been two Ricks at the venue then, this one was there all weekend. More lies from faceless posters. The Polish kid was a great lad in the end and the Huge Italian was all huff and puff. We gave him one of the medals we had left over and he was as happy as can be, when he gets back to italy and shows it to his mates they'll realise that their "huge" mate is now officially the "World 56.6kg Womens world champion". He was happy with it, just goes to show you that it is not about personal performance any more, how sad

A formal complaint has been lodged against Rick to the IDFPA.

What a shame that this is what the WDFPF is getting the most press about; especially when you consider some of the performances, not mine I hasten to add!

It looks to me as though Neil and Rick misjudged peoples feeling on this but let now move on.

Cheers,
Chris

So let's analyse exactly what the complaints are about:

Not the venue.
Not the results.
Not the organisation.
Not the quality of the spotters, judges, multiple sound and video systems.
Not the fact that judges, spotters and a DJ who worked for 2 days, 12 hours each day, were paid, fed and given accomodation.
Not the quality of the weights and their cost.
Not the fact that Neil and Rick worked 12 to 16 hour days for 8 solid days at the venue, neglecting their regular jobs and losing pay. Who do you think shifted all the weights before and after the venue and personally tidied the venue for 2 days after everyone had gone home? This on top of the huge amount of personal time spent preparing an international event.

Someone mentioned the figure of £10,500, which I cannot personally confirm, but how far do you think ten grand goes with all the aforementioned costs?

Some of the comments I've read above bear little or no truth, and are conjoured up by people with grudges.

Please bear in mind that posting false and defamatory information online amounts to libel. Several libel lawsuits in various countries have been brought against parties for Internet libel, somtimes referred to as cyberlibel.

welshfan wrote:
just wanted to know how come all welsh lifters at comp ,were put down as lifting from gbr great britain and all other lifters got there country of origin. guess some english organisers dont like the welsh they cant be bothered to put down the proper country.

good grief stop moaning about nothing!

this has to be the pettiest, most pathetic comment on this thread, and there's been a few.

wales, scotland and england are all part of great britain.

"Please bear in mind that posting false and defamatory information online amounts to libel. Several libel lawsuits in various countries have been brought against parties for Internet libel, somtimes referred to as cyberlibel"

So rick and neil have huge sums of money to fight court cases, any way its the ISP that gets sued.This I gotta see; not a chance!

empty threats like that wont stop people having opinions, any way its in the hands of the idfpa, to sort out now, let them sort it.

What do Rick and Neil work as to have 'huge sums of money'?

God knows,do they have huge sums of money?

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