If You Compete Untested, You Condone Drug Use!

I'm a drug free guy, and I think that is an idiotic statement. It's a choice. I've competed in tested & untested powerlifting & bodybuilding shows. I acknowledge going in I may be at a disadvantage; but that's fine, I'm there to do what I'm gonna do and not worry about others. Doesn't mean I support drug use, just means I do it for ME to beat MY personal records.

What an ignorant ass statement.

Epelbaum's thoughts on the matter are exactly like my own and it seems he is the only one living in the real world who has half a brain.

I don't like drug use, it's not for me. But I also hate people who preach to others from upon a moral high ground. For ADAU to treat someone like this, I will make sure I never lift in their meets.

www.biolayne.com

I don't think competing untested condones drug use at all! Maybe it isn't feasible to test lifters in the RUM because of financial reasons , or maybe they dont want to infringe upon the privacy of the lifters. Anyone who believe the ADAU has legitimate tests is a fool. Far too expensive , and complex (such as false positives ect.) Al , you have a nice fed , don't lash out and ruin it!

The title of this post is total BS. I am proud to be a USAPL RAW lifter. I get drug tested at just about every meet that I enter. But the problem is that I compete against the same crowd of people at every meet I enter. That gets old sometimes. RAW Unity is simply a chance to compete against the best RAW lifters out there regardless of primary Federation affiliation. Not everyone wants to lift in the USAPL and be drug free. I do. But I also want a chance to compete against the very best RAW lifters out there to see how I stack up. This is what RAW Unity is all about. RAW lifting. Simple. If Eric offered only a drug tested meet, it would simply be another USAPL meet. There would be no unity in the RAW Unity meet.

- Sabre

Do you mean 100% testing or the BS the IPF and other IPF-organizations with their targeting testing?

That is such an arrogant and F'ed up comment. Who cares if it is drug tested or not. I am drug free, but compete in the USPF. It doesn't mean shit. Sounds like people are scared of trying to compete against other greats in the sport.

Who are these men to judge anybody,the only person to judge me is the man upstairs.I guess if your a naturally gifted person who's strong then your taking sumthing.Shut down GNC and call the Cops,Big Joe and the boys from the ADAU what to start telling lies that your gased up.Who trusts anybody anymore with a drug test.I guess Carl Lewis was clean right? Till you can walk on water and heal the blind man shame on you.

I guess if I drink, I condone you should drive around drunk and kill people.

I've been competing WNPF, and been drug tested a couple of times but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to go to Raw Unity should the opportunity arise. That doesn't mean that I condone drug use, but I want to compete against the best regardless of what they do or don't use. I'd like to bet that the people who are saying oh don't do this because you're drug free are probably not that strong to begin with and use "raw drug free" as a crutch to make excuses as to why they aren't as good as others.

If there is anything that this sport needs it is more competitions like Raw Unity, where we actually come together and see who the best really is from across federations, regardless of what happened. We all know that Ed Coan was one of the all time greats, does anybody deny that based upon the fact that he used steroids, no. This is about lifting heavy weight, not coming up with 8 million different qualifiers to make yourself feel good about not lifting as much as another person.

Here is Raw Unity's official stance on drug testing. It is taken straight from the home page on our web site:

Will there be drug testing?

No. Since this is an unsanctioned event that happens once a year, it would be much easier for a lifter to “beat” a planned drug test. Furthermore, there are some lifters out there that use either hormone replacement therapy, hormones for the treatment of a medical condition, or designer drugs that there are no known tests for. I have had extensive conversations with some very knowledgeable people regarding this issue, and rather than try to spend money on testing that is flawed in one way or another I felt it was better to use the funds that would be allocated for drug testing for some other aspect of the meet; such as prize money or more food for the lifters. We understand that it takes a certain kind of lifter to be able to compete under these circumstances; but overall this is the majority opinion of the lifters that have chosen to compete at Raw Unity. We have drug tested in the past, but we will not do so for 2010. If you have any questions about this rule change then feel free to email me at erictalmant@yahoo.com.

I would have this to say to Mr. Orengia: If he would like to cast the first stone at someone that may use performance enhancing drugs-then why stop there? Check to see if any of the competitors have ever committed (not been convicted of-committed) a felony or a crime, if they have ever cheated on their wives, their taxes, violated any of God's commandments, etc. According to his logic, if you allow something then you condone it. I could go on ad infinitum about this; but I think you guys get the point.

Finally, I would have Mr. Orengia know a few facts:

Fact #1: We wound up 4K+ in the red on Raw Unity 1.

Fact #2: We were still in the hole $250 after Raw Unity 2. I never sold the shirts that we had left over, so we ended up in the red again.

Fact #3: ALL of the profits (if there are any) for Raw Unity 3 are being donated to the Hillsborough County children's after school athletic programs. I don't make one red cent off of Raw Unity. In fact, I even pay my own entry fee.

To say that we don’t drug test in order for Raw Unity to make more money is simply false.

Respectfully,

Eric Talmant

www.rawunitymeet.com

www.erictalmant.com

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Can we just lift and stop worrying about what everyone else, or what every other federation, is doing? PED's don't lift the weights, people do.... And they definitely won't turn a duck into an eagle; instead you'll just have a stronger duck....

I don't take any performance enhancing drugs but I compete in an untested fed because the untested feds have the best meets around here and are cheaper to compete in than the IPF, which is the only other fed where I live.

Epelbaum seems to be the only man in the arguement. He is telling the cry-baby's to man up and compete against whoever shows up. I like his comments and his need to compete against the best, this is a true competitor. I believe the same way he does, go compete against the best and let the cards fall where they may.....

This is a true powerlifter mentality!

Epelbaum's judgment is sound. I agree 100%. I also believe that the great majority of lifters compete because they love all that competition encompasses: the training, the anticipation of the event, trying to set PERSONAL bests, etc.
None of these things has anything to do with what the "other guys" are possibly up to.

I will lift in any federation. Those who bring up the pseudo-ethical crap (If you participate in a non-drug tested meet, you condone drug use) are only trying to promote their own agenda.

Orengia says his lifters are DRUG FREE and RAWWWW like all the rest of us are the enemy. Let him live in his little cozy world and tiny federation and think he is a big man on campus

The testing is an issue. I and one other lifter (who does a lot of feds, he's not picky as to who he lifts with really) both looked at raw unity and decided not to go because no testing would take place. is it important? yup.

will it keep some lifters who prefer tested out? sure. is sabre right? well, usapl, aau, adau, etc...it'll be a big tested meet mostly plus some pros who clearly know how to evade detection (and face it, that's ipf, usapl pros, and well, everybody really with a clue any more? so you can't figure one test will really help unless someone's completely stupid - and let's give them that, they likely aren't?). with prize money, you get pros. you get people who make it their business to beat you and not get busted doing what they feel they "have to" in order to beat you. that includes drugs and other methods.

so sabre is right, but so are the rest of them. not an easy question and it costs to test. if eric got the meet sanctioned with someone who helps subsidize the testing, it would help him financially - but defeat his purpose.

not an easy question but he at least addresses it up front.

as for someone being in their cozy little world and bmoc - there's a lot of that, tested or not. too many feds, too many divisions, and that's why we have too many people thinking they're king of something. everybody has their own dunghill.

I guess if you don't use a condom, you condone std's ?

you can't blame the guy... Seanzilla has stepped out of the picture so someone has to take his place to preach about how RAW! is great and everyone else is just a cheating wimp.... way to make everyone who competes drug free look like whiners.... and yes, I compete drug free.

Drug testing is useless and a waste of money.

I met that Orienga dude and even trained at his dungeon gym in Erie PA--He is a certified loon and EXTREMLY hateful towards anything but HIS brand of lifting!

When one searches their own soul for moral clarity one must remember they are seaking clarity for only themselves. With the amount of federations there are in powerlifting the offer and availbalilty to compete under what ever rules and sanctions there are has never been broader. Any athlete could compete anywhere anytime. Yet some feds are born out of the conviction of a moral good. In doing so we spark the opposite behavior in that we force our moral good on others. Most feds are small, and yet they proclaim themselves as standing on the high ground and the only legitmate place to lift.
I say with strong convition hooeey!!!

One makes this country great is choice! The choice to lift with gear or without gear. The choice to use performance enhancers or not.
the choice to be christian, or muslim ir Jewish, or hindu, or whatever.

Taking the moral high ground would be to elevater ourselves to accept those that others have chosen to do and to tolerate them.

No one is breaking a fed law by competing in the Raw Unity Meet, no one is cheating in doing so.

Eric Talmant is trying to achieve something with this meet, and he pays for it out of his own pocket. He is attempting to elevate our sport and all those who compete in it. Yes he is human and therefore falable. Yet he, by his raw unity meet, is doing something more ethical and moral then the adau in allowing any and all lifters to compete for the love of the sport.

Stop trashing others success and offer your support instead and watch our sport grow, or craw into your cave and damn those who have become enlightened.

"Orengia also warns Epelbaum about his decision: "A word of caution, my friend. Three of the best competitors I ever had, on the JOES GYM team, felt just like you do and wanted to go to the dark side to show thier stuff. They never came back and two of them eventually dropped out.""

That's hilarious. The "dark side"? What- did they turn into Sith lords? Steroids are a training tool- not a religion.

Gratton, you are the same guy in 2003 signing praises about WADA and drug testing.

I'm just going to throw this out there.... UNITY!!!

HELLO!!!! UNITY means UNIFY lifters across federation lines. UNITY... as in bringing together geared/raw, tested/untested, fat/skinny... EVERYBODY!!!!!

The whole idea is get down to the basics and bring all the talent together under one roof without any sanctioning federation staking their claim. Its the only time you will get WPC and IPF champions on the same platform. You have to give Talment mad props for doing that. The meet is a HUGE positive for powerlifting.

UNITY! UNITY! UNITY! ... pass that word around your brain a couple times.

Putt Houston.... now with Ridiculous BCWW

We at organizaiton____________________just fill in the blank will not tolerate unity under any circumstance. Just because we bitch, whine, moan and kvetch about the plethora of orgs in Powerlifting is by no means any reason why our supreme org of righteuously minded and intended commanders of Powerlifitng should yield and shut down our doors for the good of all.
It just goes on and on and on without end. Would someone please just shoot it already.

I do condone drug use, and i do compete drug free and untested.

Proudly sponsored by Titan Support Systems Inc. I get so fed up with this 'HOLY' I hate drugs frame of mind! If even steroids were so horribly dangerous, then where are all of the bodies piled up at that was predicted 40-50 years ago. Now that the endocrine system and health/aging is more understood by the medical community, what does the medical community prescribe to off-set these problems?...The once 'EVIL' TESTOSTERONE!!!! and/or HGH (Human Growth Hormone). Did you ever stop to think that one reason athletes perform better on them is because in some ways they are healthier? Just maybe! You have athletes in their 50-60-70s still very healthy, strong and looking 20-30 years younger than their age now due to the use of HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy). Yep! Good old Testoterone and HGH. Maybe not so EVIL afterall! Like any drug, you can use it properly or be really stupid with it (you can kill yourself real quick with aspirin or tylenol. Much easier than with even high doses of steroids). Get off of that antique band wagon and look at the facts and not the myths. Drugs in and of themselves are not a bad thing. Today in our modern world of drugs, the average lifespan is what? 78+ years. Before the turn of the century and all of the drugs availiable it was 34 year in the U.S.! Them drugs don't look so bad now do they? There is nothing 'moral' or religious about it. God put every substance on earth that is here. We can't make a single compound without using what he put here. He also gave use the brain to figure out how to make use of them, either singly or in combination. So use what you want or don't. But get off of this holier than thou, "DARK SIDE" attitude of yours and mind your own business. You'll probably find that a full time job in itself. Just my opinion based on almost 54 years of living, competing, loving and generally enjoying life down here!

Couldn't someone just not want to pay for a drug test or pee in a darn cup without condoning drug usage?!?

I know several that do "PED's" and several that don't, including me. I chose to lift in non-tested feds because I just don't want to do the drug test. I'll test clean, but simply don't want to deal with it. Not condoning either choice. It's just my choice.

Anyone that things there's load of money being made by hosting meets needs to really consider all that goes into meets. From the postage and paper to the trophies and shirts. Let's not forget about equipment too, and then there's paying those that help.

You're incredibly lucky if you made any money at all. Maybe you have enough for your deposit on the venue for the next meet. We've started well into the red on all the meets we've hosted thus far. I'm talking $1000+ dollars in the hole, just hoping we get enough entries to cover all the fees.

Respect to you Eric and the RUM for donating any profits to a charitable cause. Best of luck with the meet.

This isnt just coming from the adau. more and more federations are starting to hate raw unity. raw unity is a once a year contest so its not taking away anyones lifters, there isnt even a membership fee. RUM even tries to keep the lifters from the usapl safe from suspension by not allowing anyone to lift while on suspension. we couldnt even let ed coan judge at the meet because it would put the lifters in jeopardy. RUM took a lot crap for that. RUM took a lot of crap when the IPF said it was ok to lift at RUM. When RUM first started everyone was calling BS on it sayng it would never work. This meet is truely for the lifters and the lifters only, no political bs, when you lift there everyone is there from 20+ federations and no one is dogging anybody's fed of choice. Its the 3rd annual RUM and its about FULL and it aint even November yet. the lifters have spoken and Ill see yall in January!

......maybe this lifter just wants to do a meet on a national scale and have his lifts judged in a strict yet fair venue .....remember , you can never compete against someone else ...you have no control over what they lift...YOU CAN ONLY COMPETE AGAINST YOURSELF AND TRY TO BETTER YOUR BEST LIFTS....I`D RATHER COME IN 5TH AND GET PR`s, THAN WIN THE MEET AND LIFT LESS .....the best meet I ever had got me 2nd place yet I got to compete against the best of the day...the "big stage" was a long way from "Brooklyn" but I wouldn`t want it any other way ! I support this lifter 100% ...the operative word is "UNITY" ...see you @ RUM .....Pat Susco ..Brooklyn NY

I can understand Joes point but if a guy goes to a meet and the only competition is untested then go and compete.

This is a hard topic to get involved with.

If you say that you support untested meets you look like you support drugs.

If you oppose the meet you look like a prude....

Lift and be happy but if you use drugs you will sooner or later pay for it with your health.

Good luck to RUM and ADAU.

It is funny you said something about how easy it is to kill your self with say asprin of shit like that.....I know a dude whos 14 year old dog got into his dbol......he had almost 200 10mg tabs of them.....yup the dog got ahold of them and there was like 20 left....it was fine...didnt even puke...no fucked up shitting nothing.....to all you drug free dudes...you think you could take 150+ asprin and still be alive? NOPE

To some they are a religion. They are not so much a tool as a statement of manhood.

Oh God!!!! Maybe a person who competes in an non-tested federation (or even a tested federation) just wants to compete and have a good time....PERIOD!!! What dose the federation have to do with his/her opinion on drugs in powerlifitng?

The RAW unity meet is a great thing but to who ever goes to compete, PLEASE.....do the meet to enjoy yourself in the sport of powerlifitng and try to get some PRs. Who gives a shit if someone else is jacked on drugs just have fun and do it for yourself.

If you don't use a condom you are contributing to the spread of STDs. Not a good comparison. Try again! Three analogies for a quarter.

hahaha awesome this is great

No, It doesnt condone drug use. It condones you going to a contest you think will be fun and try to beat your last pr.

I do not use drugs and I compete in both types of meets. If I dont see a person using I am not going to say they are. I train hard and diet to the best of my ability and have put up a good numbers. I dont not condone drug use in our sport and it is up to the individual to chose but I love to compete and put up my best against anyone in any meet. If I did my best than I have no need to be upset. I guess what I am saying is that someone's love of the sport and competition in any event does not mean one condones drug use it just mean they love to compete.

most ignorant opinion I've heard in a while.

This is a rather stupid subject but I guess I would rather these lifters not lift then loose and blame it on the fact that the winners are using. I am sure that will be the reason they don't win if you know what I mean. Eric is putting up a good meet and like always somebody finds a reason to bash it.

Why even state your opinion. Just keep you opinion to yourself and don't lift. Who gives a shit why you won't lift. Get a life already.

I like the fact that there are people who want to bring powerlifting closer together, like raw unity. I just dont get how people bitch about it...people are attempting to do something great for the sport and receive negative criticism for it....unbelieveable

"A critic is a man who knows the way, but can't drive the car"

I personally do not believe lifters need drugs to be at the elite level. Proper training, skill, nutrition rest and recovery make up the cornerstone of any elite athlete. Performance enhancing drugs can enhance an athletes skill level yes, but do not automatically make an athlete elite by taking the drug or drugs. I choose not to take performance enhancing drugs because of my personal ethics and overall well being especially considering this is a hobby not a job. I have lifted in drug tested feds and non-tested feds and both have there share of egomaniacs, owners and lifters alike, and better than everyone attitude. Raw Unity is trying to unify the best raw and equipped lifters to compete in a true competitive environment with no outside federation influence. I do not see any of the drug-free feds stepping up and drug testing EVERY lifter, that is what drug-free is, all lifters must be tested or you would fall under drug tested: under random, coefficient, suspicion or any other spin you would like to put upon it. I would have no problem taking a drug test at anytime in any fed, people have choices and I no I can rest assured that I have and continue to make the right ones for me because it not only reflects upon me but my family and friends. The CIRCUS is not only the drug use, it is the judging standards and fed rules. Every meet I have participated in had some questionable judging practices that did not match the rules of proper execution of the movement. Some meets this was more prevalent than others and the majority of meets I participaed in had the judges, spotters and loaders performing these duties for free.

U are sadly mistaken!I have NEVER supported drug testing or WADA!!!!!!!!

IAM WITH GLENN HE JUST WANTS TO COMPETE AGAINST ANYBODY TO SEE WHERE HE IS AT! BACK IN THE DAY I COMPETED IN A DRUG FREE MEET SANCTIONED BY THE ADFPA AND A GUY THERE ASKED MY FRIEND IF I WAS ON MY FRIEND TOLD HIM NO AND HE SAID WHY NOT EVERYBODY HEAR IS!

It sounds like Allan or Joe are one of those high school substance abuse speakers right now, where they tell kids "if you drive your drunk friend home so they don't drive themselves, you are condoning their behavior. Or if they OD and you take them to the hospital to have their stomach pumped, you are condoning their behavior." Are you serious? This is a very childish, immature, and overly simplistic way of viewing the issue at hand, whether it be my analogy, or the tested vs non-tested fiasco. Not everything is black and white guys - no matter how hard you try to make it fit.

Good luck to all involved in the Raw Unity Meet. Eric really seems to put on a great meet.

In respose to McDougals post above - I believe NASA has a 100% tested meet in KY this month. This is the second annual.

Mastermonster... thats a hell ov a post.

But most importantly... i wanna see that dog!

Kinda makes you want to go to an ADAU meet and break out a Phenom, just for s***s and giggles. And don't forget to take a few copies of T-Mag as well.

You posted on a USAPL forum when Russia started to get popped for Drug tests. Your words where ' Looks like WADA is starting to pay dividends' That is what you wrote. I would kill to have an old copy of that post to prove it, as I am sure you will continue to deny this fact. For you to say you no longer support WADA or drug testing is a fact. To say you NEVER support drug testing or WADA is a BOLD FACE LIE!

Since you obviously know my personal history with NASA ,which really is not at all bad, I am sure Greg Vanhoose would not have a problem with me competing at that venue. I am competing at the 504 Raw Pro competition that is closer to my house on October 17th with a chance to go against some great competition and win a little money that will pay for my trip and competition if I fare well. I used the SPF Worlds as a tune-up for this competition so competing in more than 2 meets in a month would
be a mistake and not duable financially at this time. I have no problem competing in any NASA meets in the future, pro or non-pro and tested if feasible with my schedule and budget. Please let the NASA thing go away because I remained as neutral as possible to let the past be in the past and did the best I could. I had a positive experience while lifting in that fed and overall believe they have a great concept and loyal following. That being said, no fed is perfect. I am competing at the SPF Raw Pro meet on November 15th, Raw Unity at the end of January and Clash of The Titans and Kings of the Bench in April. If allowed and NASA is doing a Pro Powersports meet in March, I would gladly be tested and do any qualifying meets in a reasonable distance to compete at that venue. Though i am a Top Hog team member, I have no problem stepping out and competing in other feds on my own for the need of competition. Any more questions anonymous, please feel free to use your real name and debate not argue if you want powerlifting to get further unified not divided. Mr. Epelbaum I applaud you for your reasoning and sometimes you have to go against the masses and/or the powers that be to compete against the best. I recommend that the fed takes it as a positive that you are willing to compete in an untested venue to see how you stack up against ALL competitors Raw and equipped as well as those who are and may not be drug-free. This is a hobby and powerlifting CAN NOT move forward to a mainstream sport such as bodybuilding, yuck, and taken serious until there is unification and egos are pushed aside for the better of the sport.

Some of the ADAU members have actually been quite supportive of me competing at the RUM. They feel that this may actually give the federation some national exposure and possibly attract new members outside of the northeast region.

I appreciate everybody's support. ADAU founders and members are very adamant about their anti-drug stance. I respect that, even if I don't quite agree with some of the rhetoric. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree and move on.

I am looking forward to competing at the RUM. I just need to get my strength up so I can at least be within a hundred pounds of your total. Care to spot me 50 lbs on the bench?

No, but hanging around with your friend while he constantly gets to drunk to drive night after night is definitely condoning and enabling the behavior.

Also, in this economy, people may want to compete without spending a bunch on travel. I love sleeping in my own bed before a meet. If an org has a meet near home I might participate. I've learned something from every competition. As a master lifter my main goal is to beat my old numbers. If I get a PR and someone else beats me, I'm still happy. I made progress!

Way to go Mr. Epelbaum! When I did the first RUM, I was a (then) current ADAU member. I don't remember a big dust up on their boards about it at the time. Not sure why they're all knotted up about it now...

I agree with you, in that while I understand their positions and sincerity about the "drug" issue, I don't share them. I'm more interested in the competition rather than worrying about the next guy's private business.

Blah, Blah, Blah... Poor Allan, Poor Joe - The Patron Saints of Powerlifting, get over it...People like Gleb are good for the sport because they will represent the very essence of the sport at it rawest form, against the PED users!!! Why wouldn't you want this? As a competitor I want to compete against the strongest "Unequiped" lifters out there. I don't care if they take PED's, it's their choice; just as it is my choice to enter these untested meets.

Drug tested meets are a lot like watching a Globetrotters -vs- Generals game...Same players every meet, same tricks and same results.

Ok, and if you go to a Bar you condone alcholism, if you take asprin tyou condone drug abuse, if you look at pretty girls you condone porn and the explotation of women. Dang glad thier are people out there to tell me how to think and act..couldn't do it without ya !!

Just because i stated "starting to pay dividends"dosn't mean i support WADA or drug testing--Just stating a fact.

Kudos to Mr. Epelbaum for his response. He hit the nail on the head.

What else could 'Start paying dividends' mean? IPF went WADA for drug testing, that was an investment and a big one at that. WADA popped the Russians, your comment was made in support of that.

If someone wants to enhance themselves in an untested federation, fine.

If someone wants to stay "natural" in a tested federation, that is just as well.

As long as the "enhanced" lifters stay out of the tested federations, there really isn't a problem in my opinion.

Having a unity meet is a great way to bring all of the biggest lifters together, and anyone who says otherwise needs to take some time to sit down and think about what they are saying.

and to hasbeenneverwas, i like pretty girls, and condone porn.

When a Federation pays US to be on their team then they can question or maybe even decided where/when we compete. As long as we pay THEM, they just need to shutup and run better meets hoping we will decide to do theirs.

This is old news from september....