New twist to an old topic - Too many Feds

gee what a great and new topic.

what were the main reasons of the splits to begin with? Ego problems, rule interpretation problems, and arguments about finance. Can any of those reasons be expected to have magically disappeared? No. So it won't work. Too bad, but reality nonetheless.

Choice is good

Well I think Larry pacifico opened pandoras box with his formation of the NPA. Then after they reconsolidated drug testing was the intial factor. The future leaders of both the ADFPA and the APF had they're seperate views on the matter. Later, ego's got the best of people and the formation of new feds took shape from the already splintered power world. There are more reasons but thats it in a nutshell.

as for lets say, the multi ply feds..

APF/WPO
IPA
SPF
UPA
SSA

the APF will not align with the IPA, as they feel they are better judged and would not want to change or incur any of the IPA rep..

The IPA , as well as most everyone else for that matter, cant stand KK. He destroyed the WPO, and ripped off too many people... So, noone wants to align with him or the APF.

Not sure why Louie is now aligning with SPF, but im sure someone or something pissed him off...

We can go on and on. People will not always get along, and who cares.

I think it really comes down to demographics...I live in south Jersey..not too many feds hold meets here. And for me it not very easy to travel many hours for a meet. So it seems that many feds hold to a certain area/region. If I wanted to do APF or SSA, I have to travel to upstate New York. IPF, I'd have to travel to midwestern PA...I do know Skiba is holding an IPF meet here in NJ so that one is feasable. The WNPF holds about 5 meets here in South Jersey. But in general there are many many feds but not all of those feds are nationwide and most feds stick to a certain area. If only a limited number of feds existed and those feds were available in most states then I don't think we would have the problem of too many feds.

I think it is an authority issue.

Many of the different federations have sprung up because they did not like the strict judging or equipment rules of an already existing organization(somebody wanted to wear multi-ply, or canvas, etc.).

The more you gravitate away from the original Principles of Powerlifting, the more fragmentation you will have. I suppose it is akin to one of the Laws of Thermodynamics, that everything tends, to trend, toward chaos and decay without a governing force.

If we look back to the USPF, it has more or less maintained the original Principles of Powerlifting. While the USPF does not drug test, you can still be relatively sure that somebody lifting in the USPF will need to keep their butt on the bench, and break parallel when they Squat.

The reason that the ADFPA(USAPL) and NASA were formed, was primarily due to the Drug Testing issue. Brother Bennet and Rich Peters believed that Drug Free Powerlifting was/is necessary to maintain the credibility of the Sport. It is interesting that these two organizations, like the parent organization(USPF), still adhere to single-ply, and adherence to the Original Rules of Performance are tightly enforced. The AAU, which also Drug Tests, seems to be doing a good job of this also.

With the exception of the USPF, however, when you move away from 3 Drug Tested organizations, it seems that adherence to the Rules of Performance, and single-ply lifting, starts to disintegrate. You begin to see everything from Bench Bibs to Multi-ply Equipment, to Squats that are a football width above parallel and called a World Record.

My belief is that it is an authority issue. When certain entrepreneurial lifters could not get their current organization to bend, or extend, the rules, they simply create a coalition of lifters who feel the same, and then start their own organization.

More feds = more choices = more chances to compete close to home.

Not many of us have the luxury of being able to take 3 or 4 days off of work every time we want to compete, then the money it takes to fly out and get a hotel.

More feds = more contests close to home = good thing

Choice IS good, but what I don't understand is the need to form a federation with a president, officers, national meets and even world meets for what is essentially club/gym or state lifting. Examples include the USPF (CA and VA), ADAU (PA), UPA (OH and IA), SPF (TN area), IBP (NC area) and many others. All of these run powerlifting contests and all have different opinions on rules, drugs, equipment, etc. and there is no problem with any of that. The only problem is when these lifts become "all time records" or "national records". The reality is that these meets are informal contests with a wide variety of rules and no standardization.

If someone totals 3000 in a loosely judged multiply meet, they are definintely strong, but now is the time to step up and go to WPC Worlds and compete against the best on the same platform and see what total they get under standardized powerlifting rules. Some will remain local legends and some will accept the challenge to step up. The fact is that there are only 2 real world powerlifting championships: IPF worlds and WPC worlds. All of the "all time best" lifters and "World Record Holders" of other federations have the opportunity to enter and qualify for the IPF worlds or WPC worlds and see how good they really are. Some step up and take the challenge. Others do not with many excuses - the reality is that most of them are just not as good as they think they are. IPF and WPC both have a qualification process which anyone with LEGITIMATE world record lifts would easily make it through.

I'm an APF lifter and i also competed at WPC Worlds. I wish the APF was still the dominant fed like it was 2006.

THe fact is many lifters and meet directors left the APF/WPC because the guy at the top treated them like dirt. It doesn't help that the prize money that was supposed to be paid out at the WPO never happened.

I thought the 2006 APF Nationals was the best venue and had the best judging of the 3 i've attended so far. I thought it was very unprofessional of the APF president to go online and attack the judges and meet director instead of sitting down and talking about any problems that occurred. This is why so many meet directors and lifts have left.

WHy would a lifter support a federation if they were treated like dirt and their prize money checks bounced? The APF/WPC/WPO was shaping up to the number 1 fed in 2006 because of the prize money supposedly paid at the Arnold all of the media exposure it was getting. The bounced checks and negative treatment really hurt the APF.

The only way I see the a number 1 fed coming through is if they made money along wmedia exposure. If you do that it would pull the lifters which would bring meet directors.

ipf
apf
100% raw
uspf

thats it....

It's just too late. At one time this was an amateur non-profit sport. Once some clowns realized that you could make a profit out of the deal it opened up a pandora's box that cannot be shut. Too many, I am the world champ of the world of Montana people out there looking for pretend meaning to their otherwise mundane lives to get it back into the box. Noble idea but stick a fork in it cause it is all done!

I'd like to see if any of the fed officers would even be OPEN to the idea of consolidation. Without anyone even leaving the door open to change, it's going to be business as usual.

That my anonymous friend is the big question at root of this thread. And those are the guys I'd really like to hear from.

Any federation officials out there have any comments? The lifter's are listening.

Robert Harris
Las Vegas, NV

I agree with you in that the system under which we currently operate (many different federations)creates an environment in which state and national "records" a devoid of all meaning. However, if we consolidate too much, we will lose alot of newcomers to the sport. After all, who wants to go to a meet (spending $50 per event) knowing they have no chance in hell of winning. That would create an environment in which people simply trained (doing very few meets, if any) until they felt they were at a level to be competitive. While this would certainly make meets more interesting given the fact that people would only be watching the best in the sport, it would certainly not be conducive to recruiting newcomers. I do not know what the answer is, though it will likely lie somewhere between the current system and ultraconsolidation. Moderation will be key, as will people putting aside their ego's for the betterment of the sport.

I can definitely see your viewpoint.

However, If the USPF, USAPL, NASA, and the AAU do not presently do a Meet in your State, then I think it would be easier to get credentialed as the State Chairman, or a Meet Director, with one of those already existing organizations, than to go through the process of starting your own organization.

The only advantage to having only one to four feds is that it might make for more legitmacy in records and would reduce the number of "World" or "National" champions. If you go to your meets chasing your own PRs instead of worrying about the next guy, none of this stuff matters.

Agreed, but who is going to spend the money to drive to and enter a compentition when they can set PR's in the gym for free. Like it or not the majority of people who go to meets (at least beginners) go so they can be competitive and feel a sense of accomplishment beyond PR's in the gym. Noone will pay the money to get this dicks sanded by the same people over and over.

Both are exactly right, so who cares as long as people come out and lift, have fun and are treated right, that is the main thing to most. If you consolidated everyone out there, then the same ones complaining now would just bitch there needs to be more choice. No matter what happens they would complain, anfd half of them probably don't even lift anyway. Most lifters lift to break there own records and could care less about other lifters in other federations. One thing is for sure, just like squat depth, this topic is always good for a bunch of hits. I guess maybe tomorrow we can here more on how everyones squat depth sucks too.

About this, how about the best lifters out there just traveling from federation to federation and just take the titles from everyone else since there is no consolidation? Wouldnt accomplish the same thing? Then you could let everyone see how good you are. If they want come to you, how about you coming to them?LOL just my opinion.

Too much bad blood and too much bullshit.

To many egos and to many idiots wanting to make a buck on powerlifting.

Common sense would say that more people working together then Powerlifting would prosper. But as this site as shown no matter how obviously bad some feds are they will always say they are the best and better then anyone else.

So leadership is a lost cause to reduce the number of feds. The lifters need to start walking. Go with a larger fed and stay there. Grow some balls and lift where you could be beat. Go to either the APF, USPF or USAPL and stay there.

I think it comes down to legitimacey and too little control. The first meet I ever did I entered the 220 division and lifted with Shawn Cain the then current ADFPA World Champion. While I thought that was pretty cool, in what other sport can you do that? There needs to be more exclusiveness between amatuer/novice lifters and those who are truly talented. Pro-cards or something.

The next issue is comparing records. A high school football players who rushes for 600 yards in a game is not considered to hold the All-Time rushing record. There are records for high school, college and pros as well as divisions in their each respective entities.

Finally there is equipment. I am not attacking equipment use as to how it affects your total but rather how it is the driving source of revenue in the sport. As long as the equipment manufacturers continue to be the only way to make money in powerlifting, there will always be the drive to use more equipment. Why would titan or Inzer want to support divisions that put limitations or eliminate their equipment? so they call the shots either directly or indirectly through sponsorship of individuals or meets.

The NFL regularly changes their rules to make their product more TV friendly since that is where the revenue comes from. WSM is the same way.

So while choice is good, there are some positives and negatives to all choices.

I think Powerlifting in it's current state is too far gone to ever really "fix". Everyone knows in their heart of hearts that to "fix" powerlifting you'd have to drastically reduce the feds. I also PERSONALLY don't like the whole drug free this, drug free that feds. Strongman is the most popular strength sport (as far as television, known athletes, money) besides Bodybuilding; which I don't consider a strength sport.. and there is nothing "drug free" about any SM contest.

I think Powerlifting can learn from Strongman. Believe it or not, the organizations in Strongman and most of the athletes have learned a lot from powerlifting. In the sense that they have learned to really try their best to not have so many divisions, so many federations, so many this or that. And it's working well. When someone has brought up the idea of a different than NSA federation in SM everybody 100% shuns it, because all it does is cause complete division and a lack of unity.

And this doesn't even take into account the equipment issue. There should be options but the current "multi ply" feds are really taking it way overboard.

Yes but more federations to allow for more contests is not the reason why there is such a retarded amount of federations. The reasons are one of these or all

-Money
-Ego/Fighting
-Disagreements about rules/judging

That's it. No other reason. None. That's the problem, and that's what makes this sport unable to viewed as truly legitimate.

Seriously, I can't think of a single sport that is more disorganized than powerlifting. Even arm wrestling has more organization.

Consolidation will likely not occur but elimination of feds can. How will this happen? 1. The lifters man up and go to where the competition is-which will not happen, this is why there are so many now or 2. places like PLWatch and PLUSA will stop recognizing certain feds. no credit for the lifts, no more ego.

Powerlifting really doesn't have this problem outside the USA. Some Countries may have two or three different Federations, but in the majority of the World there is only one Federation

Why is this?

Just look at the goofy amount of feds listed in America....32!!!!! 32!!! No ownder we compete against ourselves in our weight classes. Why in the world would you spend money on planefare, hotel, entry fee and the like just to compete against yourself. I can do that in my garage! I say one qualifier and one National meet a year where the people are and save my extra money to lavish on my wife, kids and church.

Your #1 point is an interesting one. Having come from actual competitive sport background, I find it interesting that most PL's I know do not actually like to compete with others. It seems as if the MAJORITY of PL's are ones who want to "compete vs. themselves". This is why this sport has such a big problem.. without actual COMPETITIVE people that like to compete vs. others, you don't have a "sport". You have a casual hobby.

Those that like to compete vs. others will have a problem in PL. Lots of former athletes are now going to other sports for competition instead of PL due to this.

Too much "drug free", are you F-ing kidding me. The whole reason the sport cannot be legitimized is because too few are drug free. That's why bodybuilding is changing their paramaters getting away from the ultrafreaks...everyone know theyre just juiced out of their minds. But hey who wants to legitimize and further the sport as long as the numbers keep going up right...

LEGITIMATE and WPC????????????????

Alot of good points raised here. One issue raised about consolidation is the quantity of lifters in an area with a lack of meet directors and/or equipment. Many lifters lift in federations due to proximity of the meet. If a core group of people stopped supporting localized meets under a certain federation in an area (say Western PA, etc), it may raise concern to the meet directors to switch banners to continue whatever monetary gains they can get from the meet. The lifters will always be there, so this is an issue of not only administrative (federation officials, meet directors, state chairs, etc) but the lifters themselves taking action. If a fed doesn't have a meet in a certain area, e-mail some lifters in that area, raise concern to the federation, etc. Lifters will always have opinions on rules, but almost every centralized sport has guidelines that are followed and not always popular (roughing the passer, DH, etc). Continue to consolidate then start fresh like Olympic lifting did, new weight classes with records perhaps. Noone forgets what has been done in the past, so old record holders shouldn't fear. Meets wouldn't suffer due to ego either. Boxing is one of the largest amateur sports in this country, many enter the sport knowing they will never be fighting De La Hoya or the heavyweight champ. That doesn't diminish participation on a local level. As far as making money, this just isn't that great of a sport to pursue that in. Mainstream sports generate alot of money through ticket sales and uniform/equipment sponsors (NBA is one walking shoe sale, college football with company allegiance). Due to fans being in the seats, other random sponsors like banks, alcohol companies, and others support the sport as well. Then TV comes into play, becuase there is a demand for the sport because not everyone can pay to see it live. Small sponsors help powerlifting, like the supplement and equipment companies have done so far, but until there are large crowds, don't expect the bigger sponsors to pay up.

Here we go again. Powerlifting in the USA has become the whiniest sport ever. No other sport has so many federations. Your current fed makes you squat to below parallel, start your own. Make money running meets, hey look how much more you would make off of selling cards for your own for profit fed, do not like submitting to another, start your own fed, be the king.

In the old USPF days, there were meets close by. They were just all USPF. Beginners (like myself in the 80's) still competed, the classification system and patches was a great incentive. Making class I or even masters drug free made you feel as good as or better than a druggie being elite. Novice and class I and under meets allow sub super star lifters to still compete for gold. Even the local USPF meets had two platforms and quality judging.

Since people want drug testing and the gear has gotten ridiculous, have the following:

The all raw drug tested feds go back to the AAU where they come from. Allow standard knee sleeves and wrist wraps (Olympic lifters use them). The AAU should eliminate the single ply division since they copy the IPF rules.
USPF become the non drug tested federation with equipment specifications. If there is non drug tested raw, the USPF should do it.
APF be the anything goes federation, if people want drug testing with ulimited gear, the APF can have a division for that.
USAPL be the drug tested single ply federation under the IPF.
Maybe a pro federation, since money meets are becoming more popular.
No for profit federations.

Just dreaming, never will happen. Once one tastes power and money, they do not give it up. We are too selfish, ego driven, and like ourselves too much.

Aren't all meet directors "for profit?" I personally don't know of any non-profit meet directors. I am curious. Aren't the non-profit organizations the only non-profit people involved in the sport?

True, not much drug free about strongman, but that doesn't stop me from competing and I'm lifetime drug free. I am sure that I train harder for competing and training with those who are "on" so maybe I should thank them.

There are really only 2 weight classes, light and heavy. There is a whiny element in the sport wanting more weight divisions and farmers walk records for drug free firemen who like to workout on Thursdays, but this is a minority thankfully! The bottom line is that we can't all be champions but we should all try as hard as we can to be. This does not mean starting our own fed, but growing big enough balls to compete at the highest possible level even if it means getting beaten. Much more can be learned from competing with better lifters than can be learned winning in your own backyard!

I'm off to train for a meet which I will not win, but I will compete as hard as I can and love every minute of it!

I agree there are to many federations, thats one of the reasons we where denied by the IOC,one of the reasons, I myself along with my partner where both Wabdl world champs this year and we are both from Montana, Now I won the class 1 mens with a weak 496.8 bench in a single ply and was the class 1 overall winner, Do I consider myself a world champion???No, Priest Burdette had the biggest lift at 198 and is the world champion in my opinion for that federation.Basically another lifter who holds several Montana records has said it sucks but what are we to do, it's not like we're even close to being cetralized to where even airfare is feasable basically were set to either doing pride meets or wabdls or driving to Idaho and getting an apf meet in or doing a couple of the local mom and pop meets that nobody here's about (which I prefer).Jessie Israel I don't understand what you meen when you quote,"I am the world champ of the world of Montana people out there looking for pretend meaning to their otherwise mundane lives." I know you live twenty miles from myself and get the local papers that have talked about me and Dustin's world championship, which by the way Dustin is (352.6 lb bench, at 132lbs, new world record for 18-19)so I don't know if I'm just paranoid but I don't understand your comment, anyway I've hit every meet in Montana (small or big 15 in the last 3 years)and I've seen you once?? I also liked it that you came to our club (I told them to let you in for free and check it out) Your response was, Yah it's about what I expected for Anaconda.It works for us Mr.Israel, I believe me and Mr. hanson own every montana record in every fed that keeps track of Montana Records raw or equipped as well as several others that are state record holders and champions.I'm proud of everyone of my teammates and of our dinky gym,I have yet to see your name on any federation records or even any meet results????? But we do have one thing in common, We both spend to much time on the internet for sure when we could be training, I'm at the Gym Mon-Fri, Your welcome to come on in to our pathetic little snake pit. Charlie Farmer

Charlie,
WTF are you talking about. The reference to Montana is because I live here. I never once thought about you. I am man enough to address people face to face. Dude the comment was a general analysis about the fallen state of Powerlifting in general.
As for my lifting; I have been competing off and on for over 25 years and remember when things were a different way. You don't and I don't fault you for that.
Once again, you or anyone at your gym never, not once crossed my mind. I train in my garage and you where you do, nothing personal and congrats on your almost 500 bench.

Oh and Charlie,
just to be fair and to clear up the idea that I just type and don't compete. I did the 2007 USAPL Dakota Open in November 2007 and the NASA Natural Nationals in OKC last year along with that bench contest that I met you at. I don't do the WABDL because they don't squat and I am no deadlift/bench only believer(not that there is anything wrong with it). For the past four months, I have been wrestling with a lodged kidney stones that required two surgeries. I am now over that and if it is allright with you will get back to competing in April at the AAPF Nationals in the Master's 2 class.
Just thought that I would clarify things for your edification.

all you strongman talking it is just a matter of time before the next and the next fed pops up it is already happening.

and strongman not being drug free well why was Marius missing for a year?

Marius was involved in recreational drugs. No SM comp tests for aas.

Distance running (marathon, 10k etc), strongman, triathalon are three sports where regular athletes can be on the same field as elites. USAPL Men's Open has a qualifying total so lifters have indeed passed a litmus test to attend.

Acceptance of a sport is done on a global basis and is not based on an Americentric viewpoint or focus. The only country that truly has multiple feds is the US. The IOC letter to IPF President Albrings made no mention of feds being a problem. It did, however, reference the drug testing issue.

I guess I typed first and thought later, you are more of a powerlifter than myself (I've yet to squat in a meet) Yesterday was one of those days where we where discussing at the gym world champions, and I guess I probably did'nt understand your post, I hope you have a healthy year and have some good meets, I do take alot of pride in our club and did'nt like your comment about it, although thats neither here nor there,I do agree with you on several topics just not all,and yes Jessie you do type more than you compete,lol. Now I also agree that steroids where the number one reason probably for the ioc denial, but with all the different feds and all the different rules for the different feds, different equipment rules and all the undividedness it does'nt help, Not that it matters I'm not good enough anyway.

Not true for Strongman. Regular Athletes can not complete the Professional Strongman shows. Regular competitors could not lift the farmers walk weights or even get one rep in the deadlift for reps or break the ground with the yoke. In the US, we have a qualification system where 6-8 Amateur strongmen each year can win a pro card (3-4 heavyweights and 3-4 lightweights). Currently, there are only about 40 active pro strongmen (many just get their pro card and are rarely, if ever, seen competing again). The NAS pro shows are almost always heavier than WSM. This fact prevents all but the elite from participating. It takes the strength of a good PLer (National level or above) + speed, endurance and technique at the same time - that's why there are not many competitors.

Regarding USAPL, I agree that having the qualification is what makes even lifting at Nationals an accomplishment. I competed at USAPL Nationals 5 years ago (I barely qualified and was in the same flight as Gillingham and Siders and had no chance to win or place but I saved my money and went anyway just to be a part of it and learn something). I competed at the highest level I was capable of and I believe if more PLers did this, we would have less federations, less "World Champions" and more competition which is what it's all about!

I train with several NAS lifters, both amateur and pro. There are many meets where they compete together. The point is that there are many sports where everyone competes at the same event. I forgot to add weightlifting to the list. The ASF meet is open to all lifters with no qualifying total. It helps that the stars of our sport are so accessible. The same of it is that when lifters are given the chance to compete against, and hang with, Siders and Gillingham, they would rather stay home and "win" a local meet or compete in a smaller fed.

Amen, John!!

Get it straight, the only way to legitimize the sport is money. Michael Phelps & Dara Torres were on HBO the other night taking about super swim suits & fast pools, & never was another swimming federation brought up. Sh*t, they got a beer pong tournament for $50,000 in prizes, & I bet there isn't any fractionization(?) there. On a different note, when are one of these feds gonna allow elbow wraps for benching?

The answer to that is to bring back the old classification standards. A newbies first step would be to make a class IIII to III lifter, then work their way to class II, then I, eventually try to make master lifter, then finally elite! Why should we baby new lifters by letting them think the "won" at their very first meet!!

Classification standards are still in use, but an "elite" total in multi-ply gear is probably the equivalent of class II, so they have become meaningless.

Really? Well, bodybuilding at the top level can net people 100's of thousands of dollars. Strongman at the top level has prize purses in the 50-60k range w/ potential for large (Met-rx) sponsorships.

None of these are drug tested and nobody gives a shit. The athletes can still make MONEY.

In PL, the best lifter in the world will not make a fucking dime. And that, my friend, is more important than being recognized by some stiff olympic committee. The fact that Powerlifting elites (true elites, the top of the line) don't make a damn thing for their ability. That is very sad.

Let's not start turning this into a hate thread like usual. Stay on topic, please.

But Job, doesn't your fed fall into this category too? Essentially, aren't AAU, NASA, and the USAPL redundant? I know that Rich isn't gonna fold up and tell his lifters, "go join the USAPL". But IMO, it would be good for the sport if those 3 feds got together for drug-tested National Championships.

Jim, that would be great.

However, we have tried that a few different times. Two years in a row, we took 1 or 2 entire teams to Martin Drake's Meet in Laughlin, NV, and they never reciprocated. Heck, the last time, he didn't even put together his own team, and when we got there, Martin had to throw together a team. We asked one guy why he was lifting on the AAU Team, and he responded, "I am?"

In 2005, I tried to hold a Wisconsin Umbrella Meet, and I invited the AAU and the USAPL. I never did get a response from the AAU. The USAPL responded that they were not interested.

In 2007, a couple of the Wisconsin USAPL Lifters failed to qualify for their National Meet, and I told them that they could lift in our April Meet in Milwaukee. I told them I would discount their Entry Fee to only $20, so that it would essentially cost them nothing for the NASA Card. I even offered to allow their USAPL Referees to sit in the Referees Chairs when their Lifters were up to lift. Again, they said no. I can eMail you the eMails if you are interested.

It was 3 teams total for the AAU. NASA sent one team in 2003 to NV and 2 different teams in 2004 to NV and VA. I was on the 2004 Team that went to VA. The results are still on the NASA web site: http://www.nasa-sports.com/Team%20NASA%20Page.htm

TRAIN HARD
"BIG WILLIE" J.T. HALL
BENCH PRESS VIDEOS
INZER ADVANCE DESIGNS
BMFSPORTS
USP LABS
ADRENALINE GEAR

YES. CHOICE IS THE AMERICAN WAY. JUST LOOK HERE. YOU MORE THEN ONE FORUM TO VOICE YOUR THOUGHTS. aLL IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE. LOOK AROUND, color is around this site. Everyone doesnot do the same kind of work. So, way should Powerlifting be different. Compete where you want, IT'S YOUR COIN..........

I have no reason to doubt the existence of said emails. In 2005, the AAU was not viable in WI. I bet (AAU-WI Chair) Guy Powell could get a team together now, LOL. Even a few AAU State-level judges too. (wink)

Even the WABDL in WI could put together a team of pushers and pullers. You couldn't get all 3 together at the same meet though - almost all the same lifters would be on all 3 teams, LOL.

You also need to consider that your reputation (and that of your fed) precedes you. Bottom line: The die is probably cast....