Is Video Review Viable?

It would be great. Unfortunately most of PL is made up of crybabies, so I expect the number of "champs" to double because of this. No longer will we just have, e.g., RAW Police&Fire submaster 242 novice tested world champions, we'll have both RAW Police&Fire submaster 242 novice tested videotaped and non-videotaped world champions. :(

In short: I like the idea, and hope it gets implemented. It may give the sport back some credibility. But the feds who most need this will probably never implement it, because they will see numbers (which for them means revenue) go down.

Quite a while ago online I found some information on a laser system that I think was called SCORES-PRO. The acronym was for Spectator-Controlled Officiating Review and Evaluation System if I recall correctly, a laser-based system instead of video. I'll see if I can locate it again ;)

I have videod many comps those that use an IPF Combo type rack with a walkout are normaly ok for getting a clear view but with a mono plus 5 spotters crowding round you got very little chance often the refs have to give a white because they cant get a good look

It's worked for other sports,no reason why it couldn't work for pl.May take some juggling to get it right.

Through passion,I gain strength

I came up with the idea after getting red carded too many times on squat depth - that and reading post after post of bickering over squat depth on PLW. Granted, we use this technique at our Gym for training purposes only. It does require two video cameras and some good video editing software to synchronize the dual video feeds. And most importantly, it required some really nice tap dancing for when my wife asked why I spent 2 grand right before Christmas on toys just so I could squat deeper – she doesn’t understand… isn’t it obvious???

Anyway, it is a great training tool but I question that it would be useful – for example - to overturn a red carded lift in a meet. I highly respect the role of judging at meets – in any sport. Regardless of poor, fair, or great judging, until you’ve sat in the chair, you have no idea of the pressure that a judge is under and what that pressure can do to their calls.

We’ve all seen what instant replay can do to a sport – Football for example. Some people see it as a great thing, others despise it because it invalidates the judges.

One course of action is to do away with the judges and simply put a video camera at each chair feeding into a stream that a panel of judges can view in slow motion and pause at the deepest point. This might increase the precision of the ruling, but would also extend the length of the meet greatly due to the time it would take… Personally, I like the idea of open minded judges using video as a backup. It is the arrogant judges who feel that they are above question who would fight this. Hey, everyone can make a mistake. Use video as backup to quality judges. This could also shut the mouth of any lifter questioning his or her lifts. Video can clearly show a good lift from a poor lift.

But to answer the questions posted:

Question: After viewing the set-up, does it look like something that could reduce the controversy in the sport surrounding judging?

Answer: I think it would increase controversy from lifters used to being given white cards for poor lifts but INCREASE the accuracy of the judging to unquestionable levels. For example, when I watch my squat videos, I can easily tell that I missed a squat due to depth but also determine exactly how many inches I need to go lower.

Question: Would it ensure that lifts were judged more accurately?

Answer: Unquestionably; but it is a radical concept that I feel wouldn’t be picked up by many Federations; however, imagine video review at the World meet level. There would be no question of a good or failed lift. Everyone could see the video if placed on a big screen.

Question: If implemented, would it run in concert with or replace traditional judging?

Answer: I think if implemented, it should be done in a phased approach with the first implementation being done in concert with traditional judging. For example, I’ve been to some meets where the judging is so good, not a single lifter had anything but praise for the judging – especially when the judging is executed EXACTLY how the lifter’s brief details. For example, look at what Eric Talmant has done with RAW Unity. Eric posted YouTube videos of EXACTLY how to execute a good lift at his meet. If the judging is executed as Eric directs, there should be little question of the call – and video review wouldn’t be needed. However, for every good meet, there are just as many questionable meets where the judging is – let’s say – questionable. Nevertheless, at every meet I compete in, I’m going to have two cameras trained on every lifter for the entire meet. THIS MEANS YOU RYAN CELLI!!! ;-)

Question: Should video review be required on at least all open class National and World records and All-time records?

Answer: I say yes. Without video review, how can anyone be sure the lift was good? All world records in the major sports are recorded. Why should our sport be anything different.

And for the above post about viewing angles, we run into the same problem at our Gym. During any big lift I have to yell at the spotters to get out of the way of the camera – which can create a safety problem. However, I try and setup the cameras so they don’t get in the way of the spotters so a good lift can be recorded without putting the lifter in danger.

- Sabre

don't lift in feds that cannot judge if you want others to believe or respect your lift. simple.

It's so wonderful to have a genius amongst us lifting at our place! Sabre has added a new dimension to our training, not to mention some pretty damn strong lifts!

Good grief that is all we need to make meets even more intresting to sit around waiting for someone to watch video. I say use it for world or National records other than that forget it. Meets are too long it is hard enough to get our frineds and family to come watch us. Yea for a powerlifter we could watch a meet all day but for the average joe it would slow things down to much. Ken Ufford

Looks like his last two squats were not USAPL or USPF depth.

Great post, Sabre. One suggestion I have for feds who may start using something like this: have it running all the time in the background, but only review video material when there is a split call. That would be a decent compromise between added credibility vs. longer duration.

Or another option: keep the judges in place, and let the jury table monitor this constantly. That gives them a more useful role when dealing with conflicts. Now, when confronted with a dispute, they have to make a ruling without having seen the lift from the judges' position. Added bonus: the jury can (re)view these lifts in the background, while the rest of the meet moves on just like it normally does.

The sport is not about the judges its about the lifters, the judges are just neccesary. The NFL is credible and they use em. why not.

cameras that is

judging isn't a problem in the federations with lax judging because they don't see what happened clearly, the problem is that they don't care. as long as you stand back up with the weight and rerack it it's a good lift. so when you've got a mindset where the rules of performance don't really matter and it's more important for the guy under the bar to go home happy how does instant replay do any good?

if everyone just dunked their squats, this wouldnt even be an issue!!!

your comment represents one of the biggest problems with the sport...assumption of guilt by association. You assume certain feds will produce certain results. One of he major flaws of this assumption is the fact that many of us who compete and referee are judges in multiple feds. I am a national referee in the USPF, APF and before they were defunct in California, APC. I am also a WPC, and before it was defunct, a WPO referee. Except for times at the WPO when we were instructed to "get the guys into the meet with their first lifts", I have made my calls the same regardless of fed or gear issues. Squat depth requirements are the same in all feds so I make the call the same. Based on your logic if Scot Cartwright, for example, who lifts in multiple feds, lifted at a USPF meet and I was a ref, you would call his lifts good but if it was an APF meet, you would call them bad (I assume you put APF on the demon fed list). The judges would be the same, only the fed's initials would be different. Guilt by association attitudes solve nothing. kw

I think it isnt a bad idea. Problem I see with it is that alot of spectators think that meets take too long as it is. Adding video review would take alot more time.

Overall, I don't think is a bad idea.

One thing this example does show us is a lifter has to be pretty deep from the front view to actually be hitting depth from the judge's perspective. I would have thought on the last squat he was deep enough from the front but when looking at the side view, he wasn't close. This means all those squats that look high from the front or "close" that have been posted recently must be a mile-high. I'm not a Brunner fan but I have to be honest, he might be a lot closer to reality than I thought.

so you are admitting that you did not judge ethically and i am suppose to believe your arguement? You helped make the all time records the joke that they are, congradulations! You assumed I meant the APF but not the USPF. Why is that? Well, because people respect the orgs like the USPF which was my point that you just made by "assuming" I meant feds like APF. You just admitted to the point I was making.

Here we go again on squat depth. Don't you people ever stop to breath? Why not just slap all the judges in the face while you are at the meet and then you wont have to waste so much time typing. I would have to say probably some mistakes are made on judging just because they are trying so hard not to get videoed making a mistake, knowing they are going to get called out and beat down reguardless.

First, you have missed my point...what a surprise and secondly,
if you knew anything about the WPO and the "powerlifting entertainment" that it was intended to be you would understand your ignorance. I'm not calling you stupid, just ignorant of facts, as are many when it came to the WPO. One of my complaints to KK during my stint of three years as a ref was that it was not public information regarding how the rules were to be enforced. My point was that the lifters AND audience should have been informed of the nature of the contest. That would have eliminated the majority of complaints about that event. I was doing nothing unethical by the rules of that federation..."getting them into the meet" was part of the rules as stated by the owner of the fed. As I said, many if not most of the competitors didn't even know that was happening, which I strongly disagreed with, but that is not the debate here, I'm simply clarifying the situation. We were also instructed to call world records "by the book...just like WPC records". So, you and I might not like those rules, but they were the rules none the less. The records I passed were called as I would have called any lifter in any fed...by the rules. And for the "record", WPO lifts are only records in the WPO, so your precious boy feelings for your single-ply pure world are safely protected from the darkest side of powerlifting. And finally, the incessant whining about the APF by the multi-ply haters is ample reason for me to make the obvious assumption. My point remains valid, guilt by association solves nothing. If you stay on that point we would actually have a debate on topic. kw

see response above, I'm a computer moron, always pushing the wrong key at the wrong time.

So do the other lifters get a red flag to toss out to the platform to contest a call?

Jamey

Haha! not necessarily a bad idea. We should go whole hog into the NFL thing.....you can challenge any ruling, but if you are ruled against, you use up an attempt. So if you missed your opener, and the judges called your second(but you think it was good) and the jury rules against you -- voila, a bombout with one less attempt.

how's that for wasting time!

Easy answer to all of this bs, label the bs organizations just that, bs.

What we need are a set of Nationally Credited Ref's that will attend and ref any and all events where a so called RECORD will be set if the lifter and the org wants the credit for these lifts. If they don't want the Ref's or Official Observer, they don't get the credit, period. Why change the entire sport when all we have to do is get a qualified set of knowledgeable referees? The problem here is that we have to many "friends judging friends."

This Committee of Certified Universal Ref's would not be allowed to ref or observe organization's meets where they have a connection with the lifters or the org. Once the meet is over he/she would sign a document approving the meet and it's judging. This procedure wouldn't be neccisary for all meets, only meets where so called all time or great lifts are to be conducted.

Back to the point of the thread, whether video review is viable, I would say possibly. It might be useful to a jury to review only at its discretion. The problem is that it would put a tough technology requirement on those holding meets both in terms of equipment and its use. Also, positioning cameras would be tough.

Assuming all competitions didn't have them, it would make a qualitative difference as how the competitions run.

If we want to consider this, what would be better is to go a step further, and combine this with software to judge depth. This should be doable as there is software already available that recognizes a whole bunch of other things (faces, finger prints, etc.), so a legal squat should be a relative piece of cake. Then, if the computer disagrees with the judges, the jury can then look at the video, and verify that they agree with the computer. This way, the decision would not (at first, at least) be up to the computer. And then the competition wouldn't be stopped constantly to review the video. Now if some programming powerlifter (other than me) would develop this legal squat recognizing software, we'll be all set.

I'll try not to sound like a total dork, but since I'm still the only guy in the gym wearing a tank top and a pocket protector, I guess it doesn't really matter.

Anyway… Ed, what you state was the plan from the beginning. The video was simply the first step. I've already written the code to do real time analysis of video feeds that can judge a squat based upon any predetermined angle - parallel, below parallel, breaking vertical (laughing). However, the problem lies in being able to scan a person's anatomy and correctly judge where the hip joint and knee joint are. While it may seem easy, based upon millions of different body types, it isn't. All that I've achieved so far is real time analysis of squat depth after I've placed little orange dots on my knee and hip joint. I simply place a laptop in front of the lifter and when the squat is deep enough, the screen turns green. Crude at this point, but for someone stuck training alone, would help. I’ve only had about a month to work on this in my off hours. Once I get a beta ready, I’ll post the example if anyone cares.

It is a system that could be used to validate judging – or at least offer judges a tool.

There is software that could be customized to do this but the licensing would be insane let alone the programming costs. Nevertheless, I’m trying to do it in my garage.

And for those that are shaking their heads at the insanity of this thread; yes, I have way too much time on my hands…

- Sabre

Sabre, what you are working on sounds great; I wish you luck. I envy you having time to undertake this. And, make no mistake - I didn't say it was easy. I just said it was less difficult than getting a program to recognize a face.

As you were saying, you need to be able to spot the top of the leg at the hip joint when the leg is bent (tough) and the top of the knee (not as tough). Once done, establishing that the first point is lower than the second is straightforward. I don't know image processing that well. Ideally, you would want something akin to a hash of some of the various leg types, body types and squat stances, and compare any given image to its closest comparable.

As I said, good luck. It would be great if you get this done and working well.

Hell let's set up a motion capture stage and broadcast the little stick figure on a video screen then let the audience vote to see if its a good lift or not. Sabre is correct about anatomical differences being hard to judge. If you do use image processing, then what do you do about side spotters? Eliminate them? I have often thought of a system with two velcro disks connected by a thick red string. One is stuck to the top of the knee joint and to the appropriate place on the hip. If the string goes beyond parallel; good lift.

Thing is, even if you body scan every lifter, use computer-based image processing on the fly, or motion capture, there will still be some on here who will doubt the lift. That is the nature of this internet. Of the hundreds of thousands of lifters who compete out there, only an extremely small majority get on boards and bitch. We are talking not about judging here, but human nature. There will always be those small people who need to prop themselves up by tearing others down. They may use squat depth or federation judging differences, but the problem is psychological.

The analogies with other sports are ok but not precise. Football, tennis and baseball have instituted replay judging because the speed of the game and the skill of the players have pushed the human judges to their physical limit. I don't think that is the case with powerlifting judging.

So will video judging help? Maybe. Will it stop people from questioning lifts? NEVER

you guys are trying to solve what does not need solving. how many close calls do people really disput. it is the ridiculous high ones people bitch about. i do think what sabre is doing to help him hit depth is great but to institite that at meets etc....good luck.

they should give red lights for going ass to ankles deep.

Tell me how you going to make ALL the federation except something as this when only internet judges are the only ones that seem to need it.
Just lift and stop crying and if you are just crying and don't even lift, then shut up and stop worring about something that doesnt concern you. It will never happen so why worry about it.

Ok, first off, I'm really not sure if I like this or not. I guess for world and "all time" records it would be a useful tool to stop the online bullshit. I'm really not sure its practical with most local, regional, or state meets. It seems like its going to end up being a hindrance more so than not one. Does anyone see the audience waiting patiently for 10 minutes while theres a video review? I sure don't. At the same time, the online crap with Donnies total would never have been an issue.

I do think it could be a very useful training tool though. I'm just not sure about the competition issue.

Sabre, I don't know if you have or not, but look into the veterinary side of things for some software help/ideas. There are proprietary programs out there that use video for assessment of lameness within racing thoroughbreds. Basically the horse has special "sensors/reflectors" glued to specific parts of their body and then they are videotaped on a treadmill at a full run. The video is then played back and (and it can be slowed down) to allow determination of subtle changes in gate that might indicate a problem that normally wouldn't be seen by the equine veterinarian doing the lameness exam--its impossible to evaluate a horse at a full run as it is withotu something like this.

It seems logical that this same software could be used to easily determine the point of breaking parallel in a squatter (probably much more accurately too, because the horse models use 12+ sensors and multiple cameras, this is a 2 camera, 3-4 sensor model) and overcoming differences in body shape or size. I think the technology is being used at New Bolton Center and Kevin Keagan at the University of Missouri has been working with it since I was a veterinary student there in the 1990's. There are some other treadmill systems floating around the US if you look. Its not mainstream because of the cost of the treadmill and video equipment though.

-Jack

Its a cool concept for a technogeek (I consider myself one of those), as a training tool, and definately to stop the online crap. I just don't really think it'd be practical for most meets.

-Jack

Jack,
Thanks for the recommendation, but as a lifetime computerhead, I was able to get some code from a post production studio that I once worked for that did character animations for movies. It registers the body’s form by use of angles. When the squat is executed, it scans the body’s form for changes in geometry and then maps the angle changes looking for the predetermined ‘breaking parallel’ on the thigh. However, it is still alpha code. I’m trying to run test subjects through it but the problem that I’m running into is – laughing – personal attire. It is easy when a person is wearing a single color jumpsuit, but when people are wearing crazy crap, the sensor starts to get confused. “Would you mind putting on think pink leotard?”

Regardless, to the posts on this thread, this is only a training tool that is being developed. Personally, I think video should be used in Record attempts to qualify the lifts, but totally agree that this would be insane at anything but the National or World level due to the inevitable delays in meet length.

And a personal experience that also justifies some comments made, at the AAU Worlds, a fellow lifter was red carded for a foot slipping while benching while the video CLEARLY showed that this was not the cade. However, the judges totally refused to overturn the call let alone review the tape. So, everything said here is simply an IDEA. Hence, the title of the thread.

But it does make for a good training movie. If anyone wants the multi-camera footage from RAW Unity in Jan, just give me a shout.

- Sabre

It takes to referees to red light for a lift to be "no good". Did two referees saw the foot slip?

Ok, I misread your post then. I took it that you were still in the developmental stages of the software, not that you had an actual functioning prototype.

Again, I see this as a training tool not something that could be practically used in a meet. I can see where it could also be used for the bench press and deadlift. A subtle dip or deviation in wrist postion can be a big deal with a heavy bench.

You've definately got my interest in it.

Why wouldn't it be used in a meet for the squats? There is no more subjective call than depth. If a device (program + video equipment) could be shown to very reliably call depth, that could take all or most of the subjectivity away. At the very least, it could confirm the refs' call, or call attention to cases that require scrutiny by the jury or a video replay, or both. Hopefully there would be very few such cases, but at least there would be solid basis for a challenge then.

For anyone who cares, a sample of the alpha code output is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACrcf2wRZrc

Remember, this is a first try effort so don’t expect a lot. The movement of the line is what is important. Initially, the scan is trying to find the top of the knee, which is why it is moving somewhat erratically. The scan locks onto the hip joint fairly quickly. There is a predetermined start angle for every squat but the scan engine runs roughly 10 times a second looking for changes or corrections. I’ve somewhat overcome the attire problem by placing a scan window within the frame of view. While the scan engine runs as soon as the lifter walks into the scan field, the output is designed right now to start at the pause and stop once the movement angle reverses. It can generate the overlay graphics in near real time - right now there is about a 1.5 second delay between what is happening to what is displayed on the screen.

The output right now is broken into two different feeds. The first on the control station (think laptop) with the applications running and the camera connected and the second is simply the output video with the overlay graphics sent out through the laptops secondary display port – possibly into a projector to be shown on a screen. Right now, those graphics are just a single line. I’m working on the whole figure but wanted to focus on the critical piece first.

So for this particular squat, Bruner was right. It wasn’t even close. Actually it was 9 degrees from parallel and 10 degrees from a legal lift.

Comments appreciated.

- Sabre

Don't expect a lot? This is very impressive. Good job!

Please email me when you get a chance.

EFeldmanus@Yahoo.com